Host: Jeremy Rivera - Founder, SEO Arcade
Guest: Melissa Popp - Founder, Rickety Roo | @poppupwriter
Episode Length: 60 minutes

Episode Overview

In this deep-dive conversation, Jeremy Rivera and Melissa Popp explore the seismic shifts happening in SEO and digital marketing. From AI overviews decimating organic click-through rates to the fundamental question of whether SEO as we know it still exists, this episode tackles the industry's biggest challenges and opportunities.

Key Discussion Points:

• Why SEO was just "Google reverse engineering" from 2010-2021
• The impact of AI overviews on organic traffic (down to 1% CTR)
• How to adapt SEO strategies for LLMs and multi-platform search
• The death of top-funnel content and what replaces it
• Why the industry needs a value proposition beyond Google rankings

Best Quotes from This Episode

"We should be more in the ecosystem... our value could be so much more than Google. Why are we tying ourselves to Google?" - Melissa Popp

"From 2010 to 2021 SEO was merely reverse engineering Google. That was it. That was our job. We can't ignore other methods or other ways that search occurs." - Jeremy Rivera

"Chat GPT is now your most popular and least knowledgeable customer representative." - Referenced insight from Mike Buckby

"I question whether we actually see the death of the top of the funnel... we relied so much on top of the funnel to drive people in and guide them to the right place on our websites." - Melissa Popp

Key Takeaways & Action Items

✅ For SEO Professionals

• Expand beyond Google optimization - Start incorporating LLM visibility strategies into your workflows
• Learn automation tools - If you're not using tools like N8n for workflow automation, you're falling behind
• Shift metrics focus - Move from clicks/impressions to user capture and email acquisition
• Test LLM strategies - Start experimenting with content approaches for different AI platforms

✅ For Agency Owners

• Reposition your value proposition - Stop selling "Google rankings" and start selling comprehensive digital visibility
• Invest in multi-channel capabilities - Build expertise across social platforms, LLMs, and emerging search technologies
• Update client education - Help clients understand the new search landscape beyond traditional SEO

✅ For Content Creators

• Prepare for longer queries - Optimize for 30-40 word conversational searches, not just 2-4 word keywords
• Create bot-friendly content - Write with the understanding that AI will be reading and summarizing your content
• Focus on comprehensive coverage - Address topics thoroughly since users may get answers without clicking

Detailed Show Notes

[00:00 - 05:00] The Longest Year in Marketing

Jeremy opens discussing how much the SEO world has changed since their last conversation in December. Melissa describes this as "the longest year of marketing in a decade" due to:

• Integration of AI overviews in Google search results
• Every client asking about LLM visibility
• ChatGPT now using UTM codes (visible in GA4)
• The challenge of figuring out what still works vs. what's new

Key Resources Mentioned:

• Lily Ray's social media for AI overview fail examples

[05:00 - 12:00] Industry Response: Two Extremes

Discussion of how the SEO industry is responding with two distinct approaches:

1. The Deep End: People claiming to have cracked LLM optimization
2. The Practical Approach: Building on existing best practices while adapting

Melissa emphasizes that we still don't understand how LLMs work - "if you put 10 people side by side with the same query in an LLM, you're going to get 10 different answers."

Jeremy references Mike King's recent episode about SEO being "deprecated" but questions whether the complex solutions are just "make more different content in more places."

[12:00 - 18:00] The 90/10 Split: Enterprise vs Local SEO

Melissa breaks down the industry reality:

• 10% of SEOs work with enterprise clients where complex query fan-out strategies might be relevant
• 90% work with clients in local space where content quality is still poor and basic optimization wins

For local businesses in "Cheyenne, Wyoming," complex LLM strategies aren't necessary - foundational SEO still works because competition is weak.

[18:00 - 25:00] Historical Context: The Google Reverse Engineering Era

Jeremy makes the case that "from 2010 to 2021 SEO was merely reverse engineering Google" and that era is over.

Key points:

• SEO success was directly tied to understanding Google's algorithm
• The industry forgot other search engines existed during Google's dominance
• Now we need to think like digital marketers, not just Google reverse engineers
• The challenge is redefining our unique selling proposition beyond Google rankings

[25:00 - 32:00] The Click-Through Crisis & Google's Gaslighting

Jeremy calls out Google's claims about sending "more clicks to the ecosystem" as gaslighting, noting:

• AI overviews showing 1% organic click-through rates
• This is on top of HCU (Helpful Content Update) damage
• Search liaison position on Twitter has been deactivated
• SEO professionals who believe Google's traffic claims "should not be calling themselves SEO professionals"

Melissa adds context about Google being a for-profit company whose mission "is no longer to make the world better - it's to make as much money as possible."

[32:00 - 38:00] Multi-Platform Search Reality

Discussion of search beyond Google:

• Bing integration in Windows systems and Co-Pilot
• TikTok SEO explosion and the territorial disputes between SEOs and social media marketing professionals
• Amazon SEO as an untapped opportunity
• The need to meet audiences where they are, not just where we're comfortable

Key insight: "Search exists in so many different places, not just this myopic view we have that it's just Google that matters."

[38:00 - 45:00] Repositioning Our Value & The Midlife Crisis

Melissa: "Our value could be so much more than Google. Why are we tying ourselves to Google?"

The conversation explores how to bake in other parts of marketing into SEO work and how "we're having a midlife identity crisis as marketers."

AI has the potential to:

• Change workflows and efficiency
• Give more time for strategic thinking
• Allow for more creativity beyond the "limited SEO box"

[45:00 - 50:00] The Death of Top-Funnel Content?

Melissa poses a provocative question: Are we seeing "the death of the top of the funnel?"

Key observations:

• Users getting answers directly from AI overviews without clicking
• Same pattern happening across social media and video platforms
• If users get "correct" answers from AI, why click through to read informational articles?
• The fundamental shift in how people interact with information sources

[50:00 - 55:00] Testing, Experimentation & The Black Hat Silence

Discussion of the need for proper testing in the LLM era:

• Melissa: "I see a lot of people claiming XYZ works for AI optimization. How does anybody know?"
• Need for more data, more case studies before making claims
• The surprising silence from black hat SEO communities
• Ray Martinez's work at Archer as an example of proper testing methodology

Jeremy notes the rapid iteration of LLM models makes testing challenging - "GPT just changed from four to five and Claude moved from Sonic to Knuckles."

[55:00 - 60:00] The Bot Sandwich & Future Skills

Jeremy introduces the concept of the "double bot sandwich" - humans using bots to create content that other bots read and summarize for other humans.

Critical skill gaps identified:

• If you're "not learning how to use N8n to daisy chain multiple commands"
• Still stuck "in the mode of I need to log in and edit this WordPress post"
• "You're probably going to lose in the arms race"

Melissa discusses the personalization and bias issues in LLM platforms that we can't optimize for.

Nonprofit & Multi-Channel Applications

Special segment on how these changes impact organizations without direct sales:

• Nonprofits, news sites, and content-driven businesses
• Importance of branding, multi-channel marketing, and distribution
• Need to be on TikTok, Instagram, email marketing, etc.
• "Multi-channel is more important than ever. Get on the truck, everybody."

The New Value Metric: Capture Over Clicks

Jeremy: "The value in SEO is no longer the click. It is the capture of that user."

New success frameworks:

• Focus on email capture, retargeting, and multi-touch conversions
• Understanding 6-month nurturing cycles vs. immediate conversions
• Coordinating with e-commerce teams for inventory management
• Building comprehensive user journey optimization

Traditional vs Modern SEO Comparison

Important Resources & Links

Guest Resources

• Melissa Popp's Website
• Rickety Roo Agency
• Melissa on Twitter

Host Resources

• Jeremy Rivera SEO
• SEO Arcade
• Unscripted SEO Podcast

Specialized Content Areas

• Local SEO Content Strategies
• AI Content Marketing Workflows
• SEO Testing Methodologies
• Advanced SEO Strategies
• Content Marketing SEO Integration

Upcoming Events & Announcements

Melissa Popp Speaking Events:

• September 2024: Local SEO for Good with Bright Local (raising funds for Human Rights Campaign)
• October 2024: Women in Tech Fest, Philadelphia - "AI Workflow for Writing Content in Your Own Voice" (full workflow will be shared publicly after the event)

Continue the Conversation

Connect with the Hosts:

• Tweet us your thoughts using #UnscriptedSEO
• Share your own LLM optimization experiments
• Let us know how you're adapting your value proposition

Related Episodes:

• Mike King on SEO Evolution
• Google Algorithm Updates Strategy
• Social Media SEO Integration