What if the research model we’ve trusted for nearly a century is holding back medical progress?

In this powerful conversation, Dr. Johnny Lieberman speaks with Dr. Zaher Nahle, former lab scientist turned policy innovator, about how outdated animal testing continues to waste billions in taxpayer dollars, delay life-saving treatments, and perpetuate unnecessary suffering.

Dr. Nahle shares his personal journey from leading animal-based studies to realizing their futility—highlighting the shocking 95% clinical failure rate for drugs that pass animal trials. Together, they unpack why this system persists, the political and financial barriers to change, and how non-animal testing methods (NAMs) are transforming drug development.

From AI modeling and organ-on-a-chip technology to the FDA Modernization Act 2.0, this episode reveals a hopeful path forward—and calls on every listener to speak up for smarter, more humane science.

Top 3 Takeaways

1. Animal Testing Fails 95% of the Time
   Despite decades of use, animal models rarely predict human outcomes. This inefficiency wastes time, money, and lives.
2. Non-Animal Methods Are the Future
   The FDA now allows the use of NAMs—New Approach Methodologies—including AI modeling and organ-on-a-chip systems that mimic real human biology.
3. Public Engagement Drives Change
   Progress depends on advocacy. Contact your lawmakers and support organizations like the Center for Humane Economy to demand funding for modern, human-relevant research.

About the Guest – Dr. Zaher Nahle

Dr. Zaher Nahle is a biomedical scientist and policy expert with a PhD in Physiology and Biophysics from Stony Brook University and Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory. A former lab leader at Weill Cornell and Vanderbilt, Dr. Nahle now serves as Senior Scientific Advisor to the Center for Humane Economy and Animal Wellness Action, championing innovation and ethics in science. His work has helped drive legislation like the FDA Modernization Act 2.0, advancing alternatives to animal testing.

🔗 Learn more: Center for Humane Economy

About the Show

Puppies, Pandemics, and Public Health explores the intersection of animal welfare, public policy, and human health. Hosted by Dr. Johnny Lieberman, each episode invites changemakers, legal experts, and health advocates to shed light on what really impacts our communities—and what we can do about it.

About the Host

Dr. Johnny Lieberman is a physician, public health advocate, and lifelong animal lover with a passion for connecting the dots between animal welfare, human behavior, and the systems that shape our lives. With a background in both medicine and public health policy, Johnny brings a unique lens to conversations about how our treatment of animals impacts human health, the environment, and social justice.

In Puppies, Pandemics, and Public Health, Johnny brings warmth, curiosity, and a dash of wit to tough conversations that matter. From exposing the realities of factory farming to uncovering the links between zoonotic diseases and our food systems, his goal is to empower listeners to be informed, compassionate, and engaged citizens—while still keeping it real (and sometimes bringing in puppies).

Whether he's discussing legislative loopholes or snuggling his rescue dog between recordings, Dr. Lieberman believes that creating a healthier world starts with how we treat its most vulnerable beings.