130 How Details Transform Surfing, Self-Talk & Relationships With Kyle Thiermann Podcast

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130 How Details Transform Surfing, Self-Talk & Relationships with Kyle Thiermann

2d ago

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What if the key to mastering any craft - surfing, storytelling, relationships, or even table tennis - lies in simply slowing down and noticing the smallest details?

In a fast-paced world that often rewards intensity and output, we easily overlook the quiet power of presence and reflection. Whether you're navigating the chaos of Mavericks or confronting inner narratives, this episode reveals how attention to detail can reshape not just your performance, but your perspective on life itself.

Discover why focusing on one small detail - like the placement of your back foot - can dramatically improve your surf sessions and silence self-doubt.
Learn how table tennis taught Kyle Thiermann a life-altering lesson about humility, ego, and mastery that spills over into his big wave surfing.
Explore how interviewing his parents not only led to his new book but also transformed his relationships and deepened his empathy through the art of asking better questions.

Listen now to uncover how Kyle Thiermann’s philosophy of detail and reflection can elevate not just your surfing, but your entire approach to growth and connection.

Kyles' - Book: https://geni.us/onelastqbeforeyougo

Website: https://www.kylethiermann.com

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/kyle_tman/

Kyle was first on the show in 2018 - episode 27

Kyle Thiermann is a surfer, podcast host, and author of One Last Question Before You Go, a book about why you should interview your parents.

Music: Leo Meizoso - Soul Elegance

Michael Frampton: Kyle Thiermann is a writer, podcast host sponsored surfer for Patagonia, and most recently a published author, which is very cool and a book I am excited to talk about. But before we get into the book, I was just looking through the notes of our first podcast back in 2018 and the most important advice that I took away from that interview, you probably don't remember it was quite some time ago, but was basically to slow down and look for the details, which reiterated.

Something that Tom Carroll said the year before that he was guest number two on the podcast. And that's what he said. He said, look at the details. 'cause the, what sparked the conversation with Tom was, Tom was, you know, a good 10, 15 years older than me, and we went surfing before I interviewed him. And the waves were maybe waist high, high tide, no water, drawing off the bottom.

And here's this old man like doing full roundhouse cutbacks on waves that I couldn't even catch. And I was scratching my head. He's like, I can't even catch these waves. If I do, I'm like pumping, just trying to stay with it. And you're just flowing these beautiful round out, like, what is going on? What am I missing?

And he's just like, oh, it's just, you gotta look for the details. You go look for the little ripples and the secondary swells and the back washes and it's like trying to get blood out of a stone, surfing small waves. And if you don't have an eye for the finer details. You'll never do it. So it was really cool to, to have you sort of reiterate it as well.

And the question I have that comes off the back of that is, is that still your philosophy in surfing and in other parts of life? How has that changed? How has that evolved? Are you still looking for the details and trying to slow down in surfing? What's been going on since we last spoke?

Kyle Thiermann: I love that you checked out our last podcast because, , that's great advice that I should still give myself, uh, younger, wiser, Kyle Thiermann, uh, said that, and it's a very good reminder, uh, particularly, you know, if we want to take this concept of looking at the details specifically to surfing.

I find that my worst sessions are when I I'm thinking too broadly about myself as a surfer. As an example, take off on the first wave, , try and hit the lip mistime it fall. All of a sudden this flood, and maybe it was just me, but this like flood of negative narrative enters my brain. Like I was never that good at surfing.

I, my best days are behind me. , , this board doesn't work. Like these grand brush strokes of negativity can often, , build just a, a narrative that can ruin a session. , And, what's in common about all of those narratives are that they're too broad, right? That you're thinking about yourself generally.

And I think one of the best antidotes to negative self-talk is to look at the details. So, okay, now I'm gonna take off on this next wave and I'm just gonna think about. Where my back foot is placed on my pad. I, I find that that's actually one of the healthiest things for me to think about when I'm taking off on a wave is where is my back foot, because that's the control center of surfing.

I grew up, um, actually before I started surfing, started surfing when I was maybe 10, 11 years old. Uh, but before then, I was a really serious skateboarder. And still, you know, I had halfpipes in my backyard growing up. My older brother built this crazy six foot, six foot halfpipe with a seven foot extension.

So growing up in Santa Cruz, I was very much a, a, a, a multi-sport athlete and the bad habit of skateboarding. , That can transfer to surfing and it transfer to my surfing is that you put too much weight on your front foot. , 'Cause skateboarding is when, when you're pushing down on a halfpipe, when you know, you, you are more centered over your front foot.

Whereas surfing the control center is in the back. So it's something that I've really had to fight my whole life. Um, a bad habit to break. And even still, when I surf, I can just focus on the back pad. Okay, where's my back foot? That's a small detail I can think about throughout a wave. And suddenly, because I'm thinking about that, I can't think about this bigger narrative of how good I am as a surfer, which is not gonna help you improve at all.

You can take all those details just focusing on one thing. You know, I think a, a, a great theme of your podcast really is. Breaking apart this vexing craft of surfing into these smaller and smaller bite-sized chunks. And that's how improvement happens, , from an athletic standpoint. And it's how improvement happens from really any task that you want to take on extrapolating that concept out to, , writing, which is, uh, uh, um, what I've been focusing on quite a lot over the last few years, if I'm looking for a story to report, I was just down in Porto Escondido reporting a story for the Surfer's Journal.

It's gonna come out in a number of months. All I'm looking for is details. The, the thing that we hate reading about are generalities. The thing we love is, is reading about details. The best writers are always writing with their five senses. What is the, what did the streets smell like? How hot was it that day?

What did it actually feel like to be there? And it's, . Quite profound what being more specific with your thoughts can do for happiness.

Michael Frampton: Broadly speaking, do you think that just makes you more present in the present moment?

Kyle Thiermann: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it also gets you out of your own head if you're just thinking about the tactile feeling of what's around you, the board, the waves.

, You're, it's really hard to think about yourself generally, and a lot of, uh, suffering that happens and a lot of just bad sessions, bad surf sessions are the result of you thinking about yourself too much.

Michael Frampton: . Usually in the past or pre or future as well. When you, when you feel you get stuck in your head, you're usually thinking you're judging yourself of how others might think of you, which is something that is maybe happened in the past or is about to happen in the future.

Kyle Thiermann: Oh yeah. It's just imaginary arguments in our heads. Yeah. All day long. Right. And, and one of the best things about surfing, and the reason I've been addicted to it since I was 10 years old and still do it on a, a practically regular basis, is that it is one of the best ways to get out of our own head, because there's just so much going on, you know, and, and, um, I, one of my favorite things to do is take nons surfers out surfing for their first session because it's like.

It's like taking someone on their first acid trip or something, they're like, whoa, I had no idea this thing, this whole thing even existed. They're so outside of this, um, conventional context, you know, the day-to-day on the phone, standing upright on your feet, on solid ground, like we've all experienced that if we take someone surfing that sense of awe that they get, and it, it can be easy to forget that when we be, when surfing becomes a more normalized and habitual thing for us.

, And I think it can take more effort to get out of our own way, , and into those little detailed moments.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Is it the only way that you can surf Mavericks?

Kyle Thiermann: Well,

if you're surfing Mavericks and you are distracted from what's happening right in front of you, you're gonna get yourself in a lot of trouble really quickly. It's very easy for that to happen because a lot of times if you're out surfing any big wave, you know, you might catch only one or two waves that session, right?

When you're surfing big waves of any kind, chances are, you know, unless you're Kai Lenny, you're not gonna catch that many waves per session. And as a result, there's a lot of time sitting. Uh, and in that sitting time you can start to daydream, uh, certain narratives. And one of the best things that, that I've found is to just try and stay focused on the tactile feeling of being out there, you know, cold water on the face.

How do I feel in my body? Paddle strokes. Like, and, and for that reason, I have a real hard time going out to big waves on a boat and just jumping straight in the lineup because I, I feel that I don't get that warmup period of paddling out through Whitewater and just getting sens sensitized to my body.

You know, it's a pretty weird thing that you can go out to a place like Mavs on a boat, paddle 15 strokes, and all of a sudden you're in 50 foot waves. Like that shouldn't happen. Right. You just feel like you're like dropped into a, a completely different atmosphere and uh, yeah. I mean, if I ever take a boat out there, I always make sure to paddle around a little bit, go underwater, do a few breath holes, and just get into the feeling of this new environment.

Michael Frampton: , I imagine it. I just had a, a, a, a picture of, you know, when you, you're at a concert and you want to go to the front, your favorite band's about to come on and you want to, and you have to pick a line through just chaos. Pure chaos.

Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Frampton: And if you, and if you focus on the crowd and the different individuals, and it almost seems like there's no way through when it's just so overwhelming.

But if you just try and look for the gaps in the crowd and be polite and make your way through, you end up. Navigating all of this chaos and you achieve your goal. I imagine that's what negotiating a drop at Mavericks is. Like, if you don't choose exactly where the center of your board is going to go, you might get clipped.

Do you have to sort of ignore the, the, the chaos in a certain way? Or are you trying to Oh, a hundred

Kyle Thiermann: percent. Yeah, a hundred percent. And, uh, you know, I once did a podcast, uh, with Grant Washburn, who's, who's Surfed Mavericks more times than anyone ever. I I think he, he's documented every session. He's been out there more than a thousand times.

He was part of the really early crew to be out there, and he's still out there literally every time it breaks. I mean, this guy is one of surfing's most underground s of all time Grant Washburn. And I, I had him on my podcast and was, um, asking him about like, what do you, you know, what tips do you have?

And he said, uh, Maverick's is a wave that you gotta cut off at the knees. And I was like, what do you mean by that? He's like, it's a slab. So you can't be on top of the wave when you're, when you are dropping in, you actually have to, like, you wanna be taking off on that wave, like you're cutting it off at the knees.

Like taking, if, if Maverick's is a giant, you wanna be dropping in and the knees of that giant and it'll look like you're taking off from the top of it. But that was a really big unlock for me, surfing that wave, because how you fall out there is you, you are not paddling hard enough and you think that you're in the right spot, but really you're on top of the lip and then you're coming down with the lip, right?

You need to be lower on a big wave than you think you are, um, to actually make that drop. So that changed where I was looking when I was paddling for waves. Now, if I'm, if I'm paddling, if down the face. The 20, 30 foot wave, I'm looking at the bottom of that wave. So directly in my line of sight, I'm, I'm looking at the trough saying I'm going to get there, like I'm sprint paddling to the bottom of the wave on camera.

Then it looks like you're on the top of the wave because that water's sucking up so fast. But if you're not really putting all of your energy down the face, you're gonna be farked. And there was a whole season where I was just, I was going, I was just, um, poking my nose on like every wave. It was a, I had the wrong board and I was not thinking about that directly.

And it was like, holy shit, am I one of those wipe out guys? Like, am I like one of those? I was like, I was, and it was fucking with me. I was like, I. I don't feel like I'm a kook. Like there are, there are kooks that surf mavericks who are really just not good surfers, and they yard sail on most waves. They go on and, and shouldn't be out there, but they, whatever, they're gladiators.

Like, I'm not gonna tell 'em not to do it. Um, but it's not well respected. Like you're falling on every wave. Something's something should change. You shouldn't be celebrating all of your fucking wipe outs on big waves. Like it's dangerous. It's putting other people in danger. Like you should have a, you should have a pretty good batting average if you're gonna be doing this consistently.

So there's this whole season where I was like. Dude, what is wrong with it? Like, I just keep falling. And part of the reason was that I, I was on a board that had two beaked of a nose, so it was poking down on the convex of the wave. But also I was just, I was just focusing on the wrong things. Like I just, I was not looking in the right spot.

And it, you know, surfing bigger waves is on the face of it very simple because you are just going straight essentially, or maybe doing a big bottom turn. Um, and you can get lucky, you know, a very average surfer can paddle into it, a huge wave. But for the guys that are really good at it, , there's a, there's a delicate dance and there's so many details that are, that they're taking into account that you are, that you're just not seeing.

And it's a, a very, , high performance sport, , under the hood.

Michael Frampton: . Did any of those realizations at mavericks inform your small wave surfing?

Kyle Thiermann: Hmm, good question. Yeah, I mean, I love talking about small wave surfing because that's what I do all the time and, and people don't really ask me about it, you know, I'm like, well, you get like a dozen sessions a year out in big waves. But the reality is like, I'm just a surfer and I enjoy surfing bigger waves.

But, uh, yeah, and small wave surfing is, is just as much of a love for me. , The, the shift happened for me was starting to take notes on my sessions, , and I got this idea from Kai Lenny. He apparently has a notebook and he will jot down notes after all of his. His big wave sessions to try and improve on the last thing that he did.

So it was a season, uh, 2021 was arguably the best season ever at Mavericks. Uh, it was just day after day after day of really clean waves. Uh, it was the season that Peter, Mel got his historic barrel out there, and I started taking notes on every session. I, I started noticing that you can sit a little deeper and a little further inside.

A lot of people sit, I think, too far out and on the shoulder and just playing different games, going out with more of a strategy and then coming in, whether or not it worked, I would write down notes, um, and, you know, going into the details, right? And then coming out with more of a specific plan. , And then I took that approach to small wave surfing.

Now, I'm, I'm not gonna lie and say that I write notes on every small wave session, but, . I found that if I would just go out and, and, and think about one thing, , so for me it was like, okay, I'm gonna try and do less turns on a wave, but not do the, the double bottom turn pump that I so, so horrifically still, uh, have adopted.

, I would improve, you know, and I could take that as a win if I would just go out and focus on one thing and then jot down those notes. It felt like it was giving me a stepping stone to improve as a surfer. , I think that that was probably the biggest habit I adopted, that started from big wave surfing that I now apply to small waves.

, Yeah, I, I'll I'll let you know if I think of any others, but just the note taking, uh, is something that I've, I've applied across the board.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Which is reflecting, you are just reflecting on the, on what happened. Totally.

Kyle Thiermann: And that's a, you know, this is a real, um, big aspect of, of learning generally.

There's, there's a huge amount of science around how we don't learn by doing. We learn by doing, then reflecting on doing, on doing. Um, neuroscientists have actually studied that the efficacy in, in learning a new language or, or any skill is just hugely ramped up by doing the thing. And then that night, writing down what you did and then having a good night of sleep.

This is Matt Walker who wrote, uh, why We Sleep, really talks about sleep as a, as a superpower. And if you can reflect on what you did that day through a little five minute journal sesh, then go to sleep. Uh, it's a superpower. Right. And, and the problem with, I think one of the biggest problems with smartphones is that we.

Cut off this potential for learning because right after we go surf, do a workout, even if it takes two minutes to just reflect on it, all of a sudden we're back on our phones looking at social media, looking at text, and we're not actually integrating what it is that we just did into an embodied skill.

Michael Frampton: Yes, you're right. Smartphones have kind of robbed us from that. 'cause I grew up before smartphones and af after a surf, you, you just sort of sit and watch the ocean and drink some water. And I think there's an element of self-reflection and, and or talking about the session with your friends rather than just checking messages and onto the next thing.

Kyle Thiermann: Boredom, man. Boredom is, uh, is one of the most powerful emotions we gotta bring back boredom in our culture if we want to, if we wanna move forward.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Like boredom forces a reflection of the details, perhaps.

Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, I mean, it just gives, you know, there's, , these different kinds of consciousnesses, right?

That, uh, it's been talked about by Michael Pollan, the writer who, , who wrote, uh, how to Change Your Mind book about psychedelics. And the, the different consciousnesses that he talks about are spotlight consciousness and lantern consciousness. So Spotlight is, I'm focused, I am, , on a wave directing where these thoughts are going.

Fully engaged. Lantern consciousness is that soft eyed reflection looking out at the waves, just chilling. . Maybe you see connections, right? That's where metaphor comes in. Lantern consciousness. Like, oh yeah, this is kind of like that, which is kinda like this. And both are really important for the human brain to be engaged in on a daily basis.

, Our society is really set up for spotlight consciousness, just that highly caffeinated, white knuckling forward, and we don't, um, really give the value of lantern consciousness that it deserves. Um, you know, that's why, you know, driving is so nice for people, right? You just get to chill out and then you come up with bigger ideas with lantern consciousness, right?

You're like, oh yeah, I should start that business. Or maybe this relationship isn't right for me, or, oh, you know what? I'm gonna marry that girl. Like you have big aha moments with lantern consciousness. So, um, it's, it's something that I think like exercise. We should try and make more room for.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. I think that lanin consciousness only sort of comes about with calmness.

You have to be calm and relaxed, get rid of that tunnel vision and be aware of everything. And also, you mentioned driving. I mean, the only, the only way that you can have that lanin consciousness when you're driving is because you have previously had spotlight consciousness on driving and you've learnt to see the details and the surface of the road through concentration and purposely having to do it where you're learning to drive.

Right,

Kyle Thiermann: right, right. Yeah.

Michael Frampton: And then that, and then that becomes a, a bit of a habit and then. You go and teach someone else how to drive and you're like, oh, now I sort of take for granted how good I am at reading the road.

Kyle Thiermann: Totally, totally. Yeah. Just, I mean, and, and Tom Carroll probably takes for granted just all of the micro details he's seeing in a wave, you know, that, that you or I might need to focus on still.

Right? Uh, there's, um, there's, you might know about this already, but I'll, I'll say it to anyone who's interested. It's, there's these various levels of learning that people talk about, and the first level is unconscious incompetence. So let's take this to surfing. Unconscious incompetence is the kook who doesn't even know he's a kook.

Like it's so oblivious to surroundings that has, that he has no idea how bad he even is or, or what a danger he's causing to the lineup. Conscious in incompetence is when this person actually realizes. How bad they are, and that's a step above unconsciousness. We're like, wow, I suck and I'm good enough to know how bad I suck.

The next step is conscious competence where all of a sudden this person's been serving for a number of years. They know how to do it, they're getting better at doing it, but they need to think about the act on the water. And I would say that's where I am with my, my surfing. And very rarely am I in, in this the next stage, which is unconscious competence, where you don't even need to think about what you're doing and you can, uh, do it.

Most of us are to that place when it comes to driving because we've driven for thousands and thousands of hours through our life. Like most of us are unconsciously competent at driving. But you can take those various spheres of learning, , and extra extrapolate 'em out to anything. It is pretty, , pretty fun to think about.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. I guess with maybe with surfing, it's like if every time you drove. The road was different and treacherous and you would kind of be, there's sharks

Kyle Thiermann: on the road.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. You'd kind of be forced to be not quite so relaxed. And that's kind of, that, that's what makes surfing so unique and fun is it, is is always so, so different.

But there are always details you can, you can focus in on. Um, I wanna segue into table tennis. Ooh, I'm ready for this. So I was listening to you interview Derek Sivers and you talked about your little secret, uh, table tennis tutelage.

Kyle Thiermann: Yes. And you

Michael Frampton: know, Derek Ss lives

Kyle Thiermann: in New Zealand now. Yes, he does. In Wellington.

Yeah. Yeah. He's, he's amazing. Derek Sivers was, uh, my top podcast guest that I wanted to interview when I started my show. Eight years ago.

Michael Frampton: Yep.

Kyle Thiermann: And I finally got him. It was a really, really special chance to, to get to sit down with him. And he was just everything I, I hoped he would be in more, you know, when you, when you get a hero on the show, part of you is afraid that there'll be an asshole.

And I was very pleasantly surprised at what a, a humble and brilliant guy Derek Sives was. Who, people who don't know. He's a, um, an entrepreneur and, and philosopher has written a number of brilliant books.

Michael Frampton: Yes. Yeah. I urge you to go and check out Kyle's interview of Derek and, uh, that will, that will give you a, a taste into Derek's world and his book.

Oh, what's it called? How to Have Anything or Anything You Want, anything You Want. Great book. What a cool book. Just not just the concept and. What the content of the book, but just the way it's written.

Kyle Thiermann: Oh my gosh. It's so good. Yeah. Uh, hell yes or no is another one, which basically means you should the answer to things.

The answer to dec your decision making process should either be a hell yes or a no. Do you wanna go do this thing Hell yes or no? And, and so often we kind of make decisions with this. Yeah, okay. Maybe, but I use that, uh, framework pretty often in my life. But yes, table tennis, uh, do you want me to tell you the story?

Yes, please. Okay. So in Santa Cruz where I grew up, , there is, or at least there was for years, a table tennis tournament. . At the end of, of the Cold Water Classic, which is the, the WQS contest that would come to town every year and all the, the big pros would, uh, would come to town and, , I fancy myself are pretty good table, table tennis player as do most people, right.

We all, we all think we're pretty good, but, but my friends and I were, were vicious. , And at the end of the cold water classic Ryan Buell, who, who later started Buell Wetsuits, would do a tournament at his house and like all the best surfers would come. Luke Rockhold, who is this UUFC fighter from Santa Cruz, was a really good table tennis player as well.

He would come, I think the win the winner of the tournament got a hundred dollars in a bag of weed. Like it was just epic, but like highly competitive. Right. And I, um, met Luke in the semifinals of the tournament one year. And he beat the shit out of me. I mean, this guy's just an incredible athlete with like a six four wingspan.

And I was so pissed off that I went home that night and Googled table tennis coaches. And it turns out in Santa Cruz there's this place, it's like in this rec room beside this baseball field, and there are table tennis coaches and players that go down there Tuesday and Thursday night. So I show up at this like underground rec hall.

There's 12 ping pong tables laid out. There's people with like sweat bands, short shorts, Nike shoes, a whole bag. Like people won't just bring one paddle, they'll bring a bunch of paddles and the everyone's sweating. It's, this is a like nearly a full contact sport the way these guys are playing. And I went up to one of the coaches and I said, will you teach me your ways?

And he said, I will teach you my ways. So I went in there every Tuesday and Thursday for the next year and I didn't tell anyone that I was going there. There are a few, you know, let's just say that I thought I was consciously competent in ping pong when I went in there and very quickly realized that I was still in basically unconscious competence.

Like in comparison to legitimate table tennis players. There are just layers to the game. You know, it's like youth being like a local average, good surfer and then having fanning paddle out and you're just like, wow. He goes way faster than any of us. We had no idea. I mean, these guys are on their toes.

They, there's just so much strategy involved in essentially tr you know, what they're trying to do is get, get their opponent on their heels because the second you can get your opponent on their heels instead of on their toes, you have them. And the spins off these balls are just going so fast that the further the, the more velocity these spins pick up, the harder it is to, um, to get them.

I mean there was this one dude, he was probably like six, six black dude from Trinidad who was like the champion. Oh my God. I mean, he was always on the last table because the, the better you got, like you get, you would get to like meet the, the next best guy. I never made it to even like play him once, but I trained and I got better and I went to ES tournament the next year and smoked the competition.

Oh, that's cool. And it was. So fun to not tell anyone about this thing I was getting better at. Hmm. That's the real lesson for me, and it's something that I pretty often will, um, will do now. I mean, I've been working on this book. One last question before you go. For the last three years and really have not told many people that I was doing it, and the reason for that, you know, it's funny, funny you should mention Derek s Siver because he, he does a TED Talk on how you should not talk about your goals.

The reason for this being that, the moment I tell you that I'm writing a book, let's say I, I just came up with the idea and I'm like, Hey, I'm writing this book, and you say, oh, congrats man, that sounds so awesome. That gives me a little ping of dopamine before I've even done any work. So it makes you feel like you're further along on your journey than you actually are.

So. To, to keep goals tight to your chest, uh, until they're very far along, um, is something that I learned from ping pong and I still do to this day.

Michael Frampton: Hmm. Yeah. You mentioned already that, I mean, there's such a difference when you, you think you're a good surfer, or you think that the local ripper at your local break is an amazing surfer, and then a pro comes out and they're surfing.

Sometimes it literally feels like they're surfing three times faster than anyone else, to the point where it makes no sense and you think, well, they're not even surfing. They're, they're, they're doing something else. That's what it's like when you see pros play table tennis compared to your mate who kicks your ass all the time.

The, this, the ball goes so much faster. They stand so much further back from the Yeah, it's, it's, it looks like a different sport, so yeah. Going through that journey of diving into that world of table tennis and you obviously improved, did it teach you anything? Did you learn any deep philosophical lessons about that table tennis journey that affected you at the rest of your life and in, in particular surfing?

Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, I, I, um, I will say, you know, a, a, a couple things. I think first that, , it's really healthy as an athlete to cross train in other sports, , and sports that, you know, surfing is a hand, it's, you know, it's, it's very like leg eye coordination, right? And knowing where you want to go on that wave is often, dependent on where you're looking.

, Like you gotta look at the part of the lip that you want to hit. , And I think that you, you can develop some really bad habits if you're only surfing and, and, and lessons can come in from other sports. So, I mean, with table tennis, , being crouched, low hand eye coordination, , and really just, just being not very good at something, like being kind of new to it, I think is very healthy for the ego.

My least favorite people are the pretty good surfers who never leave their home break and are just grumpy old fucks who don't try anything new in life. And it's just, they're so comfortable and so certain in what they do, and they're not really like pushing it. They're just doing the same thing over and over, and they're pissed off and they're grouchy about the crowd.

And we all have these people in our hometowns, and to them I just say like, man, pick up a new sport and try it. Because that feeling of newness and wonder and humility does bleed through to the sport that you know very well. , So I always really, I, I, you know, they say in athletics like, you should be doing your sport a third of the time with people who are worse than you a third of the time with people who are better than you.

And a third of the time with people who are you at your same level? That's what's gonna lead to the, the most improvement. And I think you can take that concept out to other sports where all of a sudden you're the lowest on the totem pole and you remember what it's like to suck again, super healthy.

Michael Frampton: Hmm.

Yeah. What's the difference in the way you, let's say, if you remember the first time you, , entered this table tennis hall, to then maybe the last time just before you went and, uh, and, and played the competition. Did, did you see the ball differently? Like, did you start seeing the way it spins? Like did you, did your eyes learn Oh yeah.

To move faster?

Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. Well, you pick up, um, you pick up tells from your opponent, you know, so for example, if a, what a lot of people will do who are just average table tennis players is they'll hit the ball and then they'll keep the paddle backhand waiting for the next. Shot. And if I see that you are continuing to hold it backhand, I'm gonna hit to your forehand or vice versa.

Really good table tennis players will hit it and then they'll bring the paddle straight to the center so they're then ready to go backhand or forehand and I don't know then where they're gonna go. Right? And, and a lot of them, what I'm trying to do is hit it to a place where it's gonna be awkward for them to return, but the second I see that your, um, arm is, is you're just wide open on the forehand.

Like, oh, I'm gonna hit it there every time. So you just start to, to notice more details of your opponent. , And I would've seen none of that had this coach not taught me. , I, I also, you know, I think this is just a constant struggle of mine, , but I expect a lot of myself. And if I'm not good at a new thing, pretty immediately I, I get angry.

Like I've always been this way. Like I'm, I'm competitive. I think I should be good at stuff. , And when I'm not, it, it, there's a period of time where, you know, when I was younger I would just, I was a little shit. Like I would throw tantrums when I couldn't learn something new. And, and it was, there was a huge amount of, um, you know, the flip side of expecting a lot of yourself is that there's self-loathing as well.

Like, it, you, you flip between grandiosity and, and believing in yourself and believing that you can do great things. And then you flip to, I'm the worst ever. I suck. I'm, there's no value that I can bring. And it's just both, both of these are delusions, right? Like none of us, it's, it's never as good as we think it is, and it's never as bad as we think it is.

But that is a psychology that I don't think my parents gave me. I don't think I learned it for a minute. I think I was just born with that fucking fire. And it has allowed me to progress really quickly because I will just put my head down and train in secret for a year straight to, to win a stupid bing pong tournament.

But there's a lot of, um, just like anger and pain that can come from that. I mean, I, I've never told anyone this, but I remember, I remember going to this ping pong , hall one night and getting my ass kicked so bad that I got back in my car. Started crying, like literally I was alone sitting in my driver's seat and just started crying.

And, and it wasn't that like, oh, these guys beat me. It was this idea like, I fucking suck. Like I'm so worthless. I'm such a piece of shit. Like just that hard voice that has, has been with me my whole life. Like, it just comes, comes in when I'm learning a new thing and don't have the competence to do it yet.

, But that same thing is also, it can be an engine, right? Like it goes from that to like, I'll fucking see you next week. Let's do this. Like, you know, and that's the engine that I think has allowed me to get pretty good at surfing bigger waves, right? There is a lot of that. You see a lot of real, of good big wave surfers who are.

Pretty dark, dark humans. Like they have that, that fuck you attitude like that, you know, it's, it's intense, you know, and they need that attitude to, to match the intensity of the ocean on those days. Um, and I love them, you know, I love them. Like one of my favorite people in the world is Jamie Mitchell, who, you know, he is won the 10 Paddle World Championships.

He's an excellent big wave surfer. And like, I just, I'm like, I fucking see you brother. Like we are just intense dudes. Like we have that, that fucking fire. , And you know, for me, a lot of what I, and I think, you know, Jamie would say this too, he's very open about, about that. And we've had good conversations.

Like to learn how to hold the knife and, and put a handle on the knife is, has been my work. Like to, to be able to know that you have this sharp edge, but you don't need to constantly be self-flagellating. , That, that's my, you know, life. That's, that's been my life path and my, and my lesson. I think the older I get, the better I am at just talking, speaking kindly to myself as I'm learning a new thing.

, Just being a bit more at cruising altitude and, and learning that, okay, that voice is probably never gonna go away, but there are a lot of tools I can learn to not spiral as low when I'm on that process.

Michael Frampton: It's fueling, that's the fire. Right. And you gotta learn to channel it, I guess.

Yeah, I think so.

Kyle Thiermann: I mean, I don't, I, I think that. Anyone who, who does really great things, has a bit of a fire in them. And if you don't see it, it's, it's probably because they've just gotten good at hiding their ambition.

Speaker 3: Hmm. Um,

Kyle Thiermann: but it's there. It's there. And, and I, I li I'm happy to talk about it. 'cause I think it's just, it's very common for us, you know, to, to feel that like, ugh, like I, I don't like losing, like, I want to get better.

I want to improve. , But there's a, a certain amount of that that can also destroy you, you know? And, and, and I don't want to live a life where I'm not feeling the joy of the moment, the joy of surfing. Like I love surfing. It's a beautiful life. I'm, I'm really grateful for all that I get to. Experience.

Like, it's just, it's such a, I feel so lucky to have been born into a place where I started surfing. , My whole community, you know, my friends, they're surfers. It's, it's such a, a wonderful, um, thing to get to travel around the world, you know, have friends like you. I'm like, oh, if I go to New Zealand, I'm gonna go see you over there.

And in South Africa and Mexico, like, that's not a normal thing that most people get to, you know, enjoy and experience. Like we have a really beautiful group, a community. And, and to constantly be lost in my own neuroses about how good or not good I am, like, man, you're just missing the fucking point. And you're gonna get to the end of your life and think, wow, I, I was not focusing on the right thing.

So it is getting better. And I do a lot, , like noticing the details to get outta my own way and just, you know, enjoy the session. Smell the flowers.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. It's on the seaweed. Noticing the details is something you've said a couple of times with the table tennis thing. You like, you're noticing the way that your opponent is holding the bat, and that informs your decision of what, so it's like slowing time down and focusing on the details is what allowed you to get better at table tennis.

Kyle Thiermann: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean,

Michael Frampton: make, make smaller circles.

Kyle Thiermann: Right?

Michael Frampton: And then when you sat down to interview your father, I mean, that's kind of what you did. You slowed down and you focused in on the details of him.

Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is, uh, man, we're, we're, we're stretching this metaphor, metaphor all the way across life.

But yes, I, I just came out with my first book, one last question before you go. It's, uh, a book about how and why to interview your parents before they die. Uh, and, and you know, the, the punchline of it is that. You know, your parents are just people, um, who have had lives long before you were born. And sitting down, stepping outta the role of child and into the role of journalist of interviewer can allow them to really take the floor and tell a few of these great stories before it's too late.

Um, you know, if they're surfers. I'm, I'm doing a, a project with Surfer Magazine right now where we get surfers to ask their parents who are also surfers about like some of these classic sessions. Worst Wipe Out Best Barrel Your life. How has surf culture changed since you were. Younger. Um, a a lot of this stuff we just don't know about our parents 'cause we've never taken the time to ask.

So the book is, you know, it's a how to manual on this is how you conduct a suc a successful interview. And it's also a memoir, uh, that includes, um, my mom, my dad, my stepdad, you know, a number of conflicts that we went through. But, um, really finding specific questions is one pathway to get great stories out of someone.

Right? So, a, you know, what are you, you know, if you're asking what's the meaning of life to your parent, they're probably not gonna give you a great answer. But if you ask, tell me about that classic day in 1973 at Honolulu Bay, uh, when it was just you and two buddies out and they tell that great story, um, it's gonna be gold.

You know, you're, you're gonna walk away with some digital family heirlooms that, uh. You'll be happy about. It's a fun thing. It takes about an hour to do, even on the smallest scale, right? You could just bust out your phone on the way to go surfing or, or at ho on the holiday with your parent and, uh, ask 'em some questions.

And it can lead to some very unexpected places that can feel oddly psychedelic, um, because it can recontextualize them in your mind. And, and it's just a, you know, and at the end of the day, it's a nice thing to do for them. 'cause I think a lot of parents believe and, and think that their par that their kids don't have much of an interest in them.

So it's a, you know, for me that was an unexpected benefit of this, just how much my parents enjoyed being able to tell the stories of their lives.

Michael Frampton: Why did you want to interview your father for your podcast in the first place? How did that come about?

Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, I, it was COVID and I was just, uh, it was COVID and I was scared he was gonna die.

You know, we were all really afraid, I think, during COVID, like, whoa, what is this pandemic? Um, how is it gonna affect us, the elderly? And I was forced to reckon with the fact that he wasn't gonna be around forever. So I decided to have him on my podcast. He told some, some epic stories, you know, he's this old documentary filmmaker who goes to the Santa Cruz flea market every weekend and Haggles, and, you know, owns only secondhand gear that he glues together.

He has a famous line where he says, you can fix anything with glue duct tape, or a hammer. You know, like, that's his, his wife motto. He's probably gonna put it on his grave. But I, uh. I then released the show and a lot of people reached out. They were like, Hey, I want to interview my own parents. This seems like a fun thing to do.

I've done over 400 episodes on my show and was like, well, you know what? There, as you know, Michael, like, there's a skill to this and you do improve your interviewing craft. So I decided that it could be a, um, it could be a book. At first, the first draft was very like, how to manual B, B, B. And then I gave it to some writers that I really respect and they're like, man, you gotta be more personal with this.

You need to really let me know what it did for you. This is, yeah, it can be a cool thing, but it can also be intense to sit down with your parents face to face. And a lot of those, you know, we, we so often will, will build resentment, uh, towards our parents and they'll build resentment towards us. And there's this empathy wall that.

Grows between us. , And that's, it's so common and it's so painful that the idea of sitting across from mom and dad and really looking them in the eye and asking them questions about their life can feel terrifying. Um, and you know, my, my story is that growing up I had a very close relationship with my mom.

She fell prey to a number of conspiracy theories that fractured. Our relationship in various ways, because we no longer saw the same world, right? We, we today still believe very different things about, about the world. Maybe your parents aren't conspiracy theorists, but maybe you disagree with them about politics or parenting style or just how they see you.

You know, that it's very common for us to have these ideological fractures. Questions are a way to open that up and, and take a step closer. You know, it's like there is this empathy drug, right, called questions. , But, but it's not a drug, it's a chair and a microphone. , So I found that after taking this year of, of interviewing my parents multiple times, it recontextualized them in my mind.

It just added color to, wow. Who was my mom in college. She went to Berkeley during the 1960s when protests were happening, and the psychedelic revolution was fully in vogue. And wow. My dad, he was a, he's traveled the world as a documentary filmmaker. He, he was a magician in high school, paid his way through high school doing magic shows, you know, with tuxedo and top hat, like my stepdad, who, who who you know, has spent the last 20 years pushing conspiracy theory, documentaries onto the world like it.

I mean, that, I was angry about that. And yet I didn't wanna lose that relationship. There's, we only have one family, and I, I believe that as adult children, it's kind of on us to take that step forward. Um, we are more well equipped than our parents if we can, you know, and I'm not saying that everyone should interview their parents.

I'm not saying it's for everyone. You know, some people, the best course of action is to know, to go no contact. I don't know your parents, but I will say that if it feels possible to open up that crack, do it. You, you really won't regret it. And, and if anything, you're just going to deepen your shades of who these people are.

, And it's, man, I mean, it, it's being on the other side of it now, you know, books out. A lot of people are interviewing their parents. Like, I'm really happy I took a personal approach to this story. , You know, it really is, it's a story about having a mom, losing her to conspiracy theories and using the interview process to get her back.

But I, I, like, I, I interact with her now and, , I'm not as mad. Like it's a weird. I'm just not, I'm like, wow, I'm, I see you as a person and all of our stumbles and all of our hopes and all of our intents, like, I just have more like empathy for, for what what you are and who you are. And that feels fucking good, man.

Like, it feels really, , like I'm more complete in that relationship. ,

Michael Frampton: Yeah. You under understanding, you understand that? I do.

Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. And it, and to, it's like that, and that made the whole book worth it for me. It's like, man, it's success. All the, all the success is secondary to that feeling that I, that I get, you know, like I, and same with my dad, you know, and we all, we all, uh, it's around the holidays, right?

And how often do we go home? Turn into petulant little teenagers again, right? Because we're like, oh my God, I can't believe you always do this. You're so annoyed. He goes on and on about this, did it like it's, you know, we regress too and become less mature around our parents. I would always get mad at my dad for, you know, he just goes on these like fricking soapbox tirades about like the world and how it's going to hell in a hand basket and dah.

I'm just like, oh my God. You know, I always would like get mad at him, right? And, and we recently went on a crabbing trip together up in Northern California. , And I found out I was just more chill around him. I was like, man, you're doing your thing. Like, it just a, it, it affected me less and that was a real win for me to be able to get on the other side of it and be like, wow, I, I was able to just be more chill around you.

'cause I see you as more than my dad. I see you as. As this person who I still really enjoy spending time with.

Michael Frampton: Would he articulate anything similar? Like is he aware of the, the change in the relationship dynamics since that process?

Kyle Thiermann: I think he would, yeah. Yeah. I think he would. He, he said, you know, this was a really rocked me when I first interviewed him, but he said, uh, he said, you know, I, I don't think you would've asked me any of these questions if we weren't doing an interview.

You know, we, like, you're not curious about me. You're not, you've never been curious about me. And, and it made me feel really sad because he was right. I've prided myself on being a good question asker for my whole life. And yet I was not using that skill on the people who mattered most to me. Right. And, and I think that I've developed, um, more of a habit since then of asking how he's doing, asking what he's been up to recently.

, The, the quality of question asking should extend beyond. Just a formal interview setting. You know, that's a training session for you. But the real benefit that I hope people get outta the book is to become better question askers generally.

Michael Frampton: Hmm, I I think what you said is not right.

I don't think that, so he, he may be perceived that you weren't interested. I don't think that's true. 'cause you wouldn't have gone to, you wouldn't have made a point of creating all, all you needed was a way to do it and you're like, okay, if we sit down and record it, then that just somehow for some reason, just sitting down in front of a microphone and the conversation being recorded, that creates the space for a different type of conversation, which allows you to push through the fear you had of maybe asking your dad this question.

'cause you might get the response that you had when you, when you asked a question when you were 13 or whatever.

Kyle Thiermann: Right. Or it could be awkward to ask a, you know, so what's, , what failure in life, in early life do you now see as a success? Right? Like, that could be an awkward question to ask in the context of a regular conversation, but it's a great question to ask during an interview.

Mm-hmm. So, yeah. I mean, you, you could be right. I mean, I think that the way he felt was that his kids were, were not interested in him. And the way I felt was there's no, or there's, it's harder to really go deep into the stories of someone's life when you're not in a formal interview. Setting. So I, yeah, it, it really did just take that podcast for us to take that next level in.

And, , an interview is similar to a conversation, but there are a few key differences. You know, one is that you're really driving it as the interviewer, you're deciding where, where it is that we want to go next. You don't need to necessarily respond to what he's, to what your interview is. E is saying you can just move on to a new subject.

, You know, it's, it's similar to conversation, but there are a few key differences that it can allow the person you're sitting down with to, to go deeper.

Michael Frampton: Well, it changes the dynamic. You are, you are the interviewer of another human rather than the son of someone, which,

Kyle Thiermann: exactly.

Michael Frampton: It's so hard to, I, I can see why he might think that.

Oh, I can see why any parent might think, oh, my kids aren't really that interested. Well. You are their parent, they're always gonna see you as a parent unless you break that mold. And that's what I really like about what you've done. And I, I bought, I bought my parents. There's a book called, uh, I Want to Mom, I want to Know Your Story.

Yeah. I bought, I bought one of those books from my parents years ago, and I don't think they ever opened it. And they certainly didn't fill it in. Yeah, totally.

Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. I, I bless their hearts to everyone who gets that book. I mean, it's the, the issue that, and, and, and I mean, I, look, I, I hope people enjoy that book and they get value out of it.

The issue that I see, , is that you're asking your parents to write down the stories of their lives, which is expecting them to be a great writers who can fill it in with vivid detail. , And b, expecting that that chicken scratch is gonna be meaningful to you later. , For me the, the value of audio and is really the, the, the bullseye here.

, You know, my grandmother, um, she was a hundred years old. She passed away recently, and my mom, the day after she died, realized that one of the only recordings that she had of her, her own mother's voice was a, a happy birthday voicemail that she had left her. Like that was one of the few pieces of evidence of the, the tone and resonance of this woman's voice that had ever actually been saved and recorded.

Um, and you know, when it comes to my own parents, like it's not just about what it is that they said. It's not just about the stories of their lies, it's how they sounded, you know, voice is. Voice is so different than just words on a page. , So if you can, yeah. I mean, by all means, have them fill out the stories on, on a piece of paper, but really, you know, pull out your phone, use the voice memos app, or get pro microphones and, and get them to tell the stories into a microphone, because that's what, um, there's just a, a, a, a resonance and warmth that I think can come from audio.

Michael Frampton: Do you think that those com the con, let's say I interview my mom and I record it now, she certainly wouldn't be happy with me, , posting that on the podcast, but she might be open to me sharing it with my siblings and maybe a cousin. Is that something that you recommend, like sharing the interview or is it a personal thing?

Yeah.

Kyle Thiermann: Well, we live in a time where it's easier than ever to record. And these digital fairly air digital family heirlooms can be passed down through the generations. There's never been a time in history where it's as easy to record a piece of media and potentially have a go and exist on for 10,000 years.

You know, it's pretty amazing that we could spend an hour and it could be focused purely on your family history. What do you know about my great-grandfather? Um, where did we come from? Just to be the bearer of that, , story and then share that with your family is one way to go about the interview. Just really as a, a product of posterity, , I think it's really important to ask the whoever it is that you're interviewing permission, Hey, can I share this publicly?

Can I share it with the family? But if they do, , save those recordings, make sure other people know where those recordings are. . You know, write along with all your passwords to your accounts and just take the time to do it. You know, it's, it's, it's a little bit like writing a will, you know, it's something like people don't want to take the time to do, but then when you don't, it can really screw things up.

And there's a lot of unknowns that are just left to the rest of the family. , And I don't wanna make it seem that it's sound like it's a, a hard thing to do, or just sad. Like it can be a, a ton of fun to get your parents' stories as well. , But the first thing I recommend doing in the book is just to set the date and the rest will follow.

I, my mom, , is really good about this actually. She broke her hip a number of years ago and her left hip and femur. And, and right after she realized that she really did not have her things in order. So she created this something called a gravity pack, which was like passwords to her accounts, her will, uh, music that touched her photographs from her life.

. Family history and then also, , these audio recordings will go in there. So it's, she's very organized and, , ha has done this work that is gonna save her kids quite a lot of, uh, pain later on

Michael Frampton: and have

Kyle Thiermann: Precious, my dad, he's, my dad's more of a, he's more of a flea market junk guy, and we're gonna have a lot to deal with after he dies.

But, , you know, bless his heart, we'll do it.

Michael Frampton: No, it's, it's a really cool concept, man, and it's, it's such a cool, such a cool idea for a book and obviously you want to inspire other people to do it and give them guidelines on how to do it. You've obviously thought about this a lot, do you have a framework or a method perhaps, or some ideas in which ways , how people can come up with original questions?

Kyle Thiermann: Sure. Absolutely. And I really recommend that people take the time to come up with original questions. Every chapter in One last question before you go is a question, say, every chapter title is a question. There's bonus questions at the end, but I also say that the best questions are gonna be original to your parents' lives.

They're not gonna be general, you know, what's your favorite band? Or, you know, who, who is your high school crut? Like, it, it should be specific to what made you want to take that trip to Indonesia when you were 19. Tell me about that moment. So,, if you're having a question asking session. I recommend breaking your parents' lives up into four chunks.

So this could be childhood, early adult, , late adult, and you know, where they are now. , Just breaking it up into, , you know, 15 year chunks. And then try and write five questions under each of those chunks, right? Get into the details, break it into smaller circles. Um, and if you'd spend 20 minutes breaking your parents' lives into four chunks, asking specifics about what was going on at each of those moments, , you will come up with a bunch of questions.

Another thing that I recommend when flexing this muscle is once your parents agree to the interview, get them to send you photographs from their lives, and then you can use those photographs as prompts to get them to tell stories. Ultimately, what you want out of your, your mom or dad is to. Get them to tell stories and stories will come from a photograph.

You can literally slide it across the table and say, tell me the story of this photograph. , We often speak in generalities. , And that doesn't do much for, for good audio. What you want are specific stories where they're bringing you into that situation. , So photographs breaking and then breaking your, , parents' lives into four chunks are two great tips.

And then the third is, , get them to talk about their decision making process. So, , it's not just what college did you go to? It's like, what made you want to go to that school? What, why, what? And, and you're getting now into their head and they're like, well, you know, I wanted to go here, but I decided to go here 'cause I had this crush on this guy.

And boom, all of a sudden you're in a story. . This is what Charles duh Higg the author of, , a number of books like The Power of Habit Super Communicators, called Deep Questions. Don't Just Ask about the Facts of Their Lives. Ask how they feel about their lives. And if you do that, , you will conduct a pretty good interview.

, Those are the tips.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. You gotta get into the details.

Kyle Thiermann: Yes. Bam.

Michael Frampton: The ever finer details. . Well, Kyle, thank you so much for your time. The book is called one last question before you Go.

Kyle Thiermann: When does it come out? It is out right now.

Michael Frampton: It is available on Amazon, I'm assuming?

Yes, it is. Awesome. Your website is kyle chairman.com.

Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, that's probably the best way to find me. And, uh, feel free to reach out if you, uh, if you do end up interviewing your parents, I'd love to hear from any of you listeners out there, how it goes, what you find.

I find that, that, you know, writing a book is just the start of a conversation. It's not the end. Yeah. So I wanna, I'm putting this out in the world, but I am very much looking forward to hearing how it's received and what people do with it.

Michael Frampton: Yeah, I I'm sure you will hear lots. It's pretty cool. And, uh, Kyle also has a, is it nearly, you've done like over 400 episodes of your podcast?

How many now?

Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that we, I, I am at 400 right now. Wow.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. We just did 400. That's, that, that's impressive. So I urge everyone to go and listen to, it's very eclectic. Like there is a lot of surfing stuff in there, but there's also just a lot of life stuff. And, , some really cool interviews, a great podcast to, to cherry pick and dive in.

I especially like the one with Derek Sivers. I'm a big fan of Derek Sz, , as well. He's such a unique, well thought out human and, uh, it's a great interview. , Gosh, Kyle, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. , There will be links to everything, Kyle podcast book stuff in the show notes so you can, you don't have to write this down now, you can go and click, and dive into Kyle's world.

Thank you, Kyle.

Kyle Thiermann: Thank you Michael.

130 How Details Transform Surfing, Self-Talk & Relationships with Kyle Thiermann

The Surf Mastery Podcast:

For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfe - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

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130 How Details Transform Surfing, Self-Talk & Relationships with Kyle Thiermann

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What if the key to mastering any craft - surfing, storytelling, relationships, or even table tennis - lies in simply slowing down and noticing the smallest details?

Discover why focusing on one small detail - like the placement of your back foot - can dramatically improve your surf sessions and silence self-doubt.
Learn how table tennis taught Kyle Thiermann a life-altering lesson about humility, ego, and mastery that spills over into his big wave surfing.
Explore how interviewing his parents not only led to his new book but also transformed his relationships and deepened his empathy through the art of asking better questions.