Before Big Tech was the bad guy, we all had dreams of a digital utopia brought about by the democratizing power of the Internet.

What happened?

I spoke to Judy Estrin about her decades of experience as an innovator in Silicon Valley, and what she thinks might have happened to lead us astray.

Then, I sat down with Andrew Keen, one of the earliest Internet naysayers, to understand why he saw (and was willing to call out) such a big potential problem and when others did not.

Featured guests this episode:

Judy Estrin is an Internet pioneer, entrepreneur, business executive, and author in the United States. Estrin worked with Vinton Cerf on the Transmission Control Protocol project at Stanford University in the 1970s, often looked at as the project that our modern e-mail emerged from. Estrin is a serial entrepreneur who co-founded eight technology companies. She was the chief technology officer of Cisco Systems from 1998 to 2000.

Estrin served on the boards of FedEx Corporation (1989-2010), Rockwell Automation (1994-1998), Sun Microsystems (1995-2003), as well as the being the first woman to serve on the board of Walt Disney Company, where she served for fifteen years (1998-2014). She served on the advisory boards of Stanford University School of Engineering and the Bio-X interdisciplinary program, and is a member of the University of California President's Science and Innovation Advisory Board.

Andrew Keen is a British-American entrepreneur and author.

In his book The Internet Is Not the Answer, Keen presents the history of the internet and its impact on psychology, economy, and society. He argues that the more the internet develops, the more detrimental it is to those who use it.

Keen writes: "It is more like a negative feedback loop, a digital vicious cycle in which it is us, the Web's users, who are its victims rather than beneficiaries." Keen goes on to argue that the internet has allowed for the emergence of "new, leviathan-like monopolists like Apple, Google, and Amazon," impeding economic competition and economic justice between the rich and poor.

Follow him on Twitter here