In this thoughtful and timely episode of Weaving Our Worlds, Melanie is joined by sociologist and author Avril Bell to explore the themes of her book, Becoming Tangata Tiriti: Working with Māori, Honouring the Treaty. Through rich, grounded conversation, they delve into the evolving responsibilities of non-Māori in Aotearoa, the importance of relationships in honouring Te Tiriti, and what it means to live well together in a time of political strain.

Avril reflects on her own whakapapa and personal journey as a Pākehā raised in the Far North, and the academic and social context that shaped her research over three decades. She speaks to the formative influence of Māori colleagues and thinkers, the shifting expectations of Pākehā scholars over time, and the rise of Tangata Tiriti as a way of understanding a shared and active commitment to te Tiriti o Waitangi.

Together, they unpack key ideas from the book, including the need to move from passive allyship to active, relational responsibility; the value of discomfort and mistake-making as part of the learning journey; and the importance of stamina, reflexivity, and integrity for those working alongside Māori. Avril shares stories from the twelve people interviewed for the book—mostly Pākehā, but not exclusively—and the deep care, thoughtfulness and humility they bring to their work.

This episode is an invitation: to reflect more deeply, act more boldly, and engage more meaningfully. It affirms that becoming Tangata Tiriti is not a status, but an ethic—a lifelong process of learning, relationship, and responsibility. A grounded and hopeful conversation for anyone committed to living well together in Aotearoa.

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