This week Diana welcomes back Dana Diaz, a bestselling author, to discuss her new book 'Choking on Shame.' Dana shares her personal journey of enduring narcissistic abuse from childhood into her adulthood and offers insights on how she managed to move forward. She talks about her first book, 'Gasping for Air,' and introduces her upcoming works. Dana emphasizes the importance of faith and resilience, providing hope and understanding to fellow victims of abuse. Listeners will gain valuable perspectives on the complexities of overcoming trauma and finding one's true purpose.

00:00 Sponsor Message: 7 5 3 Academy
00:48 Introduction to the Podcast
01:21 Welcoming Back Dana Diaz
02:24 Dana Diaz's New Book: Choking on Shame
05:34 Dana's Journey Through Abuse
08:31 Finding Faith and Purpose
12:25 Overcoming Childhood Trauma
18:40 Reflections on Narcissistic Relationships
28:18 Conclusion and Next Episode Teaser

Dana S. Diaz is a wife, mother, and author of the best-selling book GASPING FOR AIR: THE STRANGLEHOLD OF NARCISSISTIC ABUSE. In addition to her life-long experience with narcissistic abuse, Dana's education in journalism and psychology at DePaul University in Chicago gave her the ability to accurately verbalize and express how narcissistic abuse creates confusion and conflict within victims, so that she can help other victims know they are not alone and better understand their own circumstances. Today, Dana is a proud voice for fellow victims who are unable, afraid, or ashamed to share their experiences. She has been a guest on nearly two hundred podcasts globally, striving to create awareness and understanding to ensure victims are given the support they need to first understand their situation and then begin the healing process. She has also been a featured speaker in two Summits for healing after trauma. Her first book, chronicling her own abusive marriage that lasted nearly three decades, started as a journal that she hid under the couch cushion in the basement. Dana's second book, CHOKING ON SHAME: THE SCAPEGOAT CHILD IN A NARCISSISTIC FAMILY, was a #1 New Release on Amazon after its mid-September release. The book delves into Dana's life as an unwanted pregnancy and child, and the physical and verbal abuse she endured as a result. The final book in the narcissist trilogy, SWALLOWING MY PRIDE, is expected to be released in early 2025. This sequel to GFA brings the first two books full circle with recovery, healing, new love, and another narcissist Dana hadn't seen coming.

Learn more about Dana, her book, CHOKING ON SHAME, available at https://www.danasdiaz.com as of September 9th.

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Dana Diaz

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Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic [00:01:00] violence advocate, Diana. She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help.

Now here is Diana.

Hello everyone. Welcome. Come on in. Glad to have you here for the regular listeners as well as some new folks coming in. We have a terrific show for you today, as always. We have a repeat guest today. Dana Diaz is on the show. She was here in season three, episode 1 53, talking about having a relationship with a narcissist, [00:02:00] which many of us have experienced.

So if you haven't. Watch that episode. I really encourage you to go back and listen to it. It's excellent. The first time she was here. She was talking about her book, Gasping for Air, which is her story of, narcissistic abuse. And this time she's coming on because she just released a new book called Choking on Shame.

Boy, what a title. Have you dealt with shame like the rest of us? Um, yeah, that's a great verb to use, a description to use choking. So I'm very intrigued about hearing about her second book since her first book was excellent.

Okay, so here is her book.

Very [00:03:00] engaging cover, a stranglehold of narcissistic abuse. Again, very descriptive, great title. This book is thick. it's very well written.

Some parts are very tough to read, as you would imagine, just like. Maybe your story is hard. Your story has some hard sections in it. But before I bring her on the show, I'm gonna just briefly, read her bio again. For those that are new and haven't, met Dana. Dana Diaz is a wife, mother, and author of the bestselling book, Gasping for Air, the Stranglehold of Narcissistic Abuse.

Dana has had lifelong experience with narcissistic abuse beginning in childhood. Her education in journalism and [00:04:00] psychology at DePaul University in Chicago gave her the ability to accurately verbalize and express how narcissistic abuse creates confusion and conflict within victims so that she can help other victims know that they are not alone and better understand their own circumstances.

Today Dana is a proud voice for fellow victims who are unable, afraid, or ashamed to share their experiences. She strives to create awareness and understanding to ensure victims are given the support they need to first understand their situation and then begin the healing process. Her first book, chronicling her own abusive marriage that lasted nearly three decades, started as a journal.

She hid [00:05:00] under the couch cushion in the basement. Dana is in the process of publishing the prequel and sequel to Gasping for Air. Learn more about Dana at www.danasdiaz.com.

So I know that you're going to enjoy this interview, as much as the first one. So here we go with my second conversation with Dana Diaz. Enjoy.

I am so excited to have back on the show, my friend Dan Diaz. Thank you for coming on the show again. Oh, I'm so happy I'm back. I just am delighted whenever somebody invites me back on a podcast because there's so many, as we were just talking about, there's so many things, layers to abuse and the things we endure.

Um, so there's so much to talk about that's hard to cram into a [00:06:00] half hour or an hour show. So thank you for inviting me back. I appreciate it. Yeah. Well, I like having repeat guests because I already like you. I already know you and you have more to share with us with your new books. And so I'm real excited to hear what you have to say to the folks.

I did give, a little bio before you came on, but if you could do like a synopsis, a summary of your abuse story, just as a reminder of what you've gone through so far.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm 49 years old, so it's been a ride. But my first book actually covered my 25 year relationship and first marriage, to an abusive narcissist.

And I know we use this word narcissist very freely in society, but what I'm talking about is somebody that is so, intent on fulfilling their [00:07:00] egotistical need for power and control, that they will go to the extent of, domestic violence and things like that, various abuses, to feel that, to fulfill that ego of theirs.

And so, that covered that. But then after that book came out, the only book I ever meant, to put out. So many people had questions about, well, how does somebody end up in a relationship like that? And my immediate answer was, well, that was my childhood because I was born to a teenage mother who didn't want me.

And she, in fact, she had her tubes tied immediately after my birth, and I was born on her 17th birthday. They apparently did that in the seventies. But, then she got married to a man who was not my father and who wanted me even less because I was not his biological child. And so I endured physical and verbal abuse and emotional neglect and, had a pretty hard time trying to figure out my place in the world, especially when I'd go to school thinking, okay, I'm okay [00:08:00] here.

I'm safe here. And then I get bullied everywhere I turn, I'm facing adversity and opposition and being put in situations where I'm not good enough and I'm not this and I'm not that. And so what am I, what am I. But then we kind of answer that question in the third book, released March 31st. And that one is called Rising from the Ashes. Breaking the Cycle of Narcissistic Abuse. Yes, rising out of it. But, you know, it's sad that it took me till my late forties to really understand, and I think more so internalize and change my mindset about who I am and where my place really is in this world.

Because when you're abused, I think anybody who is listening, who you know, has had that experience, it's part of your soul, feels like it's taken away. [00:09:00] Your independence, your autonomy, I love this. I have this scene in my third book, which. I'm crying, I'm upset because I'm like, I have no contact with my abusive mother and stepfather.

I have ended my, relationship, divorced my ex-husband who is abusive. I should be happy. Things are going great. Marrying a man that I've known his family 20 years and he's the sweetest, gentlest, most patient person I've ever met in my life. And so what I really needed, but it was like I still wasn't happy.

I was still suffering. I was in still so much pain, but there was no external outward reason for it. I had so many blessings all around me but I couldn't see it because I was still holding on to that victim mindset, that pain. And my priest looked me in my eye and he says, my dear. The problem is, is you are still thinking like you're [00:10:00] the daughter of a mother who rejected you, but you're not.

He said, you're here because God intended for you to be here. She may not have wanted you, but he wanted you. Here you are God's child. You're not your mother's child. You're God's child. And that's when literally everything turned around for me. Everything turned around. Mm. And, just made me rethink my place in this world that I was like, that's right.

He wouldn't have protected me and had his hand over me through that entire childhood, which I cover in the second book. He wouldn't have protected me from, an ex-husband who was planning to, not have me exist. He wouldn't have done all those things if I wasn't meant to be here to serve his purpose.

I'll never forget the morning that I was just coming out of that first marriage and it literally just came into my head. You should write a book about your experiences. And I'd [00:11:00] never understood what it meant when God spoke to you or put something on your heart. But I literally remember like kind of glancing up like.

Is that you? It's kind of like that old book. Are you there? God, it's me, Margaret. Like, I'm like, is that you book? Oh God. I know, right? We all have that as a staple in grade school, but that was like the same kind of thing. I'm like, looking up, are you there? God, it's me. Like, were you actually did, was that for me?

Like did you, were you talking to me? But I heard it. I heard it loud and clear and that's what I did and it's amazing, as I said that I only ever meant to write the one book and then it led to the second one and now it's. Led to people wanting more. And even now people are like, what about a fourth book?

I'm like, the third one isn't even out yet. But now I'm like, actually there is a fourth book in me , and half written already, ironically, because there are so many stories that are pulled out to keep these books. I mean, I know they're thick, but they're pretty quick reads. But, it's been a heck of a ride.

But again, I go back to the faith and I think that [00:12:00] as much as people say stay away from religion, politics, when it comes to God, we are all here because we are his children. And once, like I said, I, I got that and somebody said that to me. I'm like, everything changed. Everything changed. It's like I woke up, like my eyes opened up and I said, oh my gosh, I am here.

And let me tell you a quick story. And I might have told this on the first podcast, but. During my childhood, and I covered this in my second book, which is called Choking on Shame, the Scapegoat Child in a Narcissistic Family. When you're being raised by two narcissists, it's difficult because I was that kid that always wanted to achieve more, more, doing everything right.

I was the best at everything. Honor roll. I taught myself to play piano. I was first chair viola in two orchestras, and like whatever it was, I wanted to do things that would make my parents proud. But it was never enough. It was never enough because I couldn't [00:13:00] be any more than what they wanted me to be, which was nothing, right?

So that they could feel better about the way they were treating me. But the irony is, is that as I was going through high school, I really wanted to go to beauty school. I so desperately wanted to do like makeup and facials and stuff. I was really interested in that and, nope. Again, narcissists. They can't brag about a daughter going to beauty school when cousin Joey's going to study engineering and that one's going to study physical therapy or become a doctor.

It wasn't brag worthy. Mm-hmm. So they said, you have to go to college. And I'm like, what am I gonna do in college? I mean, yeah, I got good grades, but I didn't wanna go to college. I wanted to go to beauty school. Well, guess what? I went to college. I ended up going to DePaul University in Chicago. Good Catholic girl.

Stayed with my faith. I loved the experience, honestly, and I'm glad I did it. But, uh, there's no classes on beauty over there or fashion or [00:14:00] anything unless you wanna be a fashion designer. And I didn't wanna do that. Mm-hmm. But I definitely studied psychology because I knew that I wanted to be

in a better mindset myself, even that young. But the funny thing was that all my professors pushed me more towards public speaking and writing. So I went into the journalism program, came out of there. That's about when I met my ex-husband, and again, another narcissist. He would not support me in any efforts to become a journalist or, or work in any kind of media, even, you know, small town, little cable media, because joy, success, achievement, that would outshine anything that he could possibly, or that he thought he could, achieve himself.

So he had me cleaning houses, in this podunk town that he moved us to in the Midwest. And um, that was fine. I was one, I've always been one of those people, like, if I'm gonna do something, I'm just gonna do it. Give [00:15:00] 200%. I was reliable. I was trustworthy. I ended up building a six figure empire with this cleaning business and had a crew of eight people.

But where I'm going with all this is that, so when I get this idea after that divorce, that I should write this book, it was interesting because I looked back and I thought, talk about coming full circle here. I was in this abusive childhood. I remember 12 years old was the first time I actually thought like I would never want anybody else to endure what I have.

And I know I have not even had the most horrific childhood. Other people, most certainly have endured worse, but I knew I wanted to help children that were victims of child abuse so that they could live better lives as adults, and not be stuck in that situation or repeat those cycles with their children.

So here I was [00:16:00] 45 years old, have endured this childhood, have endured this abuse, get this idea to write a book, and then I'm like, oh, so this is why you did this to me. God, this is why I couldn't go to beauty school. I had to endure all this stuff, and then you made me go to college. Or you at least put me with two parents who absolutely would not hear anything other than me going to college.

I end up in the journalism program. Now I have a degree in journalism that I've never used, but now I've had all these experiences that I can actually verbalize. Help victims of abuse. Mm-hmm. It was like one of those epiphanies where like you're like, oh, that's why you did this all. Like, but we don't see it when we're going through things.

We can't see the light at the end. We can't see that there is reason we get, we kind of drown ourselves in the sorrow and the self pity. And it's not to say the things that I endured weren't worthy of, that they were, [00:17:00] you know, awful. Other people have had more awful circumstances, but I think that's the thing that you have to come to at the end of it is to trust.

You have to trust God. He's not putting you through anything because I mean, there were times where I'm like, what did I do? What did I do? Like I'm a good girl. Like I haven't, I've made mistakes. We all do. But like, what have I done that was so bad that I deserve this? And I think so many people fall into that and then they start shaming themselves, blaming themselves, blaming God sometimes turning away from him.

And for me, it was just, it. He was ever present. There would be people that would come into my life at certain points, whether momentarily or for, some amount of time that would sort of kind of like, like a shepherd kind of herd me back, like into God's light. And so it was like, I couldn't see it until I was there, until the last few years where I'm like, oh, okay, God, I see this now.

But maybe some of us aren't meant to understand or [00:18:00] even know. Why and what and all this. But we have to trust, we have to trust that even the bad stuff is meant for us. And it's meant for a specific reason and it's meant for our specific, unique purpose in this world and in this life. And so hopefully that gives other, somebody some hope that no matter what their circumstance, there's a reason for it.

And it might not even be for you, it might be for somebody else's benefit or for them to learn a lesson. I mean, we, there we're all so interconnected, but we all are a source from God.

Hmm. I totally agree with that. Agree. I know you kind of, glossed over your, ex-husband and the suffering you went through with him in gasping for air.

I remember that story. Yeah. Of you were asleep in your house. With your son, and you heard somebody unlocking the door downstairs and [00:19:00] it was your ex-husband just barging in, in the middle, middle of the night, was barging in and took your son and you're wrestling with him downstairs trying to keep him, literally from taking him away from you.

And we talked about this before the podcast about the language in your book. The words that he would call you in front of your son and trying to sneak into your house in the middle of the night. That's a monster. That is a monster, yeah. That you were married to. And that must have been really terrifying. How do you move forward from that?

That's why I wrote the second book, because I came out of this childhood basically being conditioned to think that I had to earn love, that I wasn't inherently worthy of it. And it's hard to even love yourself when you think you have to earn love or that, you know, even as a kid, and certainly as an adult, I'd look around , I notice [00:20:00] other families and how they operate.

Or when I was playing at a little friend's house or having dinner at somebody's house as an adult, like everybody's mother loves them. Every family has dysfunction. But it's family. You stick together and a mother loves all her children, or at least she's supposed to. But I think that's the part that I wrestled with the most was that my mother did not, I mean, she did not want me before I was born.

She did not endear herself after, to me after I was born. In fact, after I was born, um, my grandma and I were just talking about this recently that, my grandma and great grandmama came to the hospital and my mother had no intention of bringing me home. She was gonna adopt me out or leave me there, whatever.

And my grandma said, oh, no, this is our first grandchild, our first great-grandchild. No, no, we are taking her home. And my grandma said she paid the bill and my grandma took me home with her, and that's who I was with. But at the point where my mother got [00:21:00] married, or, moved in, I should say, before she got married to her husband, who she is still married to after

almost 40 years. Um, well, no, it's been just over 40 years actually. But, somebody thought it was a good idea for me to go and live with them because, it's kind of interesting looking at my mother's situation. You know, her family came from Puerto Rico, both of her parents, and they lived in Chicago.

They had everything they needed, but certainly weren't living the life that she thought she should have. And she was a very, oh, just a stunning, stunning young woman. Um, and I think she knew it and she knew that she could have a better life without having to necessarily, go the route that a lot of people would.

And I'm trying to be very careful how I word that, as you can see, because I don't wanna judge her. That's a whole other thing that I deal with in the third book is my relationship and my feelings about her. But the childhood [00:22:00] being raised by somebody like that who's telling me, oh no, we're gonna wear gap clothes now.

We're gonna talk like this. Now we're gonna straighten our hair now. Nobody needs to know where Hispanic, nobody needs to know. He's not your real father. Putting on this facade and basically being told as a small child as early as five years old, I remember being told to lie to people. So I just didn't say anything.

'cause I couldn't keep my mother's story straight. I'm not even sure she could keep her story straight because she told lies about who we were so often. I, I mean, it literally made my head spin and I started saying to my friends as a little girl and all through adulthood, my mother and her stories.

They always had a story for everything. And I think that's what I know readers have expressed when they read that book, choking on Shame is the frustration of what happened versus what was put out. I mean, she is like the media, you know, she's like [00:23:00] a political correspondent that's definitely sided on, one side and it's hers.

Um, it was never on mine, and that's hard as a child to understand that your mother does not love you, that you cannot depend on your mother to take care of you emotionally, physically. Nothing. So, yeah, it was basically like serving me straight up to a monster because the opening of gasping for Air, the first chapter is when he literally walked into my place of work the first time I met him.

And I remember very clearly thinking of the robot had lost in space with the coily arms danger, danger. Like he, he came off arrogant and smug and like he, he had a sense of entitlement and it just, reminded me so much of my stepfather and I thought, oh, I know this personality type. There's no way. But [00:24:00] when you grow up like I did, you're a people pleaser.

You, it doesn't matter. It could be the devil himself. You want that person to be pleased with you. You can't deal inside of yourself with the rejection of anybody or anybody's disapproval or disagreement. It's a hard position to be in and something that's very hard to heal from.

But that's how I ended up with somebody like that. But we have to remember too, that I always joke with people, I have all these pop culture references, but they're helpful. I always say, it's not like Chucky came into my office with, you know, with a weapon and a striped shirt and disheveled hair and said, Hey, baby, that doesn't do it for me.

I don't think anybody would go on a date with Chucky. We have to remember even. Ted Bundy, the serial killer. He was charming and handsome, wasn't he? Mm-hmm. And that's how they lure us in. So even though my initial impression of my ex was [00:25:00] not a good one, I kind of had this hypervigilant detection system.

Like, oh no, I know you buddy. You don't even have to say two words. I know who you are. I didn't listen to it because he didn't approve of me. And that, that just trumped everything I had to win his approval. So once I got him to like me a little bit enough to let me in, well then he saw a vulnerable, codependent, people pleasing opportunity to take advantage and take control.

And that's exactly what he did. But, but I'm gonna be very clear about this because I'm big on accountability. Sure. Looking back, I mean, it's not my fault that I was raised that way. It's not my fault necessarily that I was vulnerable to a romantic relationship like that. But I do see that, for example, my biological father, who I have a wonderful relationship with, he had two daughters and [00:26:00] like my one sister, the oldest, one of the two, they were raised in a home by two loving parents who wanted them, supported them, encouraged them, took them to church every Sunday.

You know what we would think is, uh, I hate to use the word normal, but normal, nice family, right? Oie. Yeah. It would be healthy. She has self-esteem. She knows who she is. She has boundaries. I didn't, I was none of that. So if you would've put her in that same situation I was in with my ex back then, she would not have entertained it in the slightest, right?

She would've set that boundary and said, no, thank you. Have a nice day, and that would've been it. Um, me, like I said, just a little bit different. And I think unfortunately, a lot of people that fall into these romantic relationships do have that sense of needing to have the approval and needing to, please other people for whatever reason.

And sometimes it's ironically not even a bad childhood. Sometimes [00:27:00] it's this personality that we call the parentified daughter. It could be a daughter of a very nice family, but the oldest daughter who had to help mom with the siblings or it could be the daughter mm-hmm. Of an alcoholic or somebody with a drug dependency who had to be the parent to the parents and to the other children.

The parentified daughter that has this intense, uh. She's compelled to nurture and care for and take care of everybody. She subdues her own needs and takes care of everybody. But it's like these narcissistic or abusive people. Um, they can just sense that It's like they can sniff it out because that's exactly what they want you to do.

You jump through the hoops and I will give you a treat. I mean, I liken it and gasping for air, oftentimes to being like a dog. I, if I was a good girl, which he actually used that verbiage with me, good girl, good girl all the time. If I said the right thing, good girl. Even [00:28:00] in the bedroom, good girl. It's sad when I look back on what I tolerated, but, um, if I was a good girl, then he treated me okay for a few days.

But boy, if he saw that, I said or did something he didn't approve of, well, then I suffered consequences.

I think this is a great time to stop our conversation.

For now. I definitely wanna hear the rest of what she has to say. She has given us so many gold nuggets today as she has the first time she was on the show, and I really, want to continue the conversation with her a little bit further though. I do encourage you to come back the next time on the wounds of the Faithful podcast.

I wish you a great week. God bless you and bye for now.

[00:29:00] Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.