🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Ssanyu Birigwa, M.S., Co-Founder, Narrative Bridge https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-11-05-2025/

In this illuminating episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Kirk shares how a stressful season leading the American Foundation for the Blind and pursuing his PhD led him to the healing work of guest Ssanyu Birigwa. He recalls powerful half-day sessions in New York that began with reflective writing and moved into energy practices like the hara seven-minute meditation, creating "energy bodies" with the hands, and chakra work. Those tools, which he still uses most mornings, helped him re-center, move from heaviness to lightness, and live with greater intention and body awareness.

Birigwa, co-founder of Narrative Bridge, weaves her lineage as an 80th-generation Ugandan bone healer with her roles in narrative medicine at Columbia University and research on clinician well-being. She explains her Pause Three method, gratitude, intention, forgiveness, which downshifts the nervous system in under three minutes, then shows how story, slow reflection, and deep listening build trust inside teams. The conversation connects personal healing to organizational change, reframing "wealth" as health, relationships, spirit, and material capacity leaders can actually hold. Listeners leave with a palpable invitation to pause, tell truer stories, and align values with daily practice at work.

TRANSCRIPT:

Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, doctor Kirk Adams.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. I am that Doctor Kirk Adams talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And today I have the most special guest I've had so far, a very important person in my life named Sonya Gregoire. And Ssanyu is co-founder and CEO of Narrative Bridge. She is an architect of systemic transformation frameworks that enable organizations to operate with authentic alignment between their stated values and their daily practices. And the more organizations who can do that, the better for all of us. Ssanyu, if you just could say hi, then I'll talk a little bit about how awesome you are. I'll turn it back over to you.

Ssanyu Birigwa: Thank you. Kirk. Hello everyone. It is a deep pleasure to be here with you and your audience. Just having the opportunity to connect is really important, especially during times of such change that we are all feeling, you know, beyond what I think we can describe with words. Thank you for having me.

Ssanyu Birigwa: All right.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So as many of you may know, I am a totally blind person. Have been since age five, when my retina is detached and had a lot of surgeries, unsuccessful, painful surgeries, a lot of hospitalization between age five and 12, which, of course, I didn't think of it as childhood trauma at the time. But now now I know I experience some significant childhood trauma. Went to a school for blind kids for second and third grade and then into public school where it was sink or swim. I was always the only blind student. And I had a family that really did some great things for me, including holding high expectations for me and treating me on an equal footing with my sighted siblings. Didn't didn't attend to a lot of psychosocial elements of having a significant disability and weren't equipped to do that, but made my way through school and got an academic scholarship and went to college. And then you know, had a lot of challenges around finding meaningful employment, as so many of us do, with only 35% of us in with significant disabilities in the workforce. But but made my way and with a lot of support from a lot of great people with a big investment by the lighthouse for the blind, Inc. here in Seattle and my professional development, I was was able to become the president and CEO of of that organization here in Seattle.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And then I was hired by the American Foundation for the Blind AFB, Helen Keller's organization, to take on those same roles for AFB and lead them through a financial turnaround and an organizational transformation which involves strategic planning and restructuring and doing lots of hard things like eliminating positions and closing programs and the hard things that needed to be done. So in the midst of all that, I, before I was hired by FBI, started a PhD program, a PhD in leadership and change through Antioch University. So I was in the middle of that dissertation process. My wife, Roz, and I moved from Seattle to New York City and lived in a tiny apartment in Park Slope in Brooklyn. I learned how to take the F train to the A train up Penn Station, up to the office at two Penn Plaza. And we lived there about a year and a half. Our strategic plan led us to relocate our headquarters to the Washington, D.C. area. So we moved again to Arlington, Virginia, and was working there. Culture shock for a person born and lived always in the Pacific Northwest and a weather shock, the hot, humid summers and Virginia in particular, and the very cold winters. We did not own enough clothes, but I was attending to implementing the strategic plan very assiduously.

Dr. Kirk Adams: I was working on my PhD work, and I would get up every morning and kind of prepare for the day. And I got in the habit of listening to podcasts when I when I was getting ready. I use a great app that's very accessible for people who are blind called eye catcher. And I would just put in a keyword in the search engine and kind of go down the list of what popped up and just tap on something that kind of resonated with me that that morning. And I honestly don't remember the podcast, but the guest was Ssanyu. Gregoire and the host had spent some time with you, Ssanyu, and had had had some experiences with the healing work that you do. And she said, after my session with you, I could just feel all. I was just cleared of all the mucky muck. I remember that phrase, and I said, that's what I need because I feel like I am in quicksand. So I emailed the host and said, I'd like to talk to you, Ssanyu. And she can she emailed you and said, this dude, this dude reached out and he wants to talk to you. So you kindly set up a phone appointment, and we talked for about half an hour, and we determined that it would would be a good fit for us to work together.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So I remember having an experience with you at the Four Points by Sheraton and Chelsea on 25th, and we spent about four hours together. And you started out by reading a poem to me and asking me to write a reflection. And I read you my reflection, and that led us into a deep conversation. And then, you know, you took it from there. And we had several of those kind of half day sessions in person. And so one of one of the greatest memories I have is you know, you didn't touch me with your hands, but you were you were moving stuff around. I can feel it in my body. I could feel things opening and loosening, and I could feel energy flowing like it hadn't in a long, long while. And then you and I had a regular virtual series of virtual sessions, and you taught me a number of things. I the horror meditation, the seven minute meditation. I did it this morning. Lit the palo santo, did the meditation. I probably do that five out of seven days a week. And you taught me how to create energy bodies with my hands and move that energy into my chakras, which I, I remember the first time you taught me how to do that. I said, that's trippy. Yes. I said something like, it's real.

Ssanyu Birigwa: Yeah.

Dr. Kirk Adams: We're not making this stuff up. Yeah. So, you know, you really had a huge impact on the way I live as far as thoughtfulness and intention and paying attention to energy and paying attention to my body and using some of the techniques that you taught me. And now a blessing to the world. You are taking this knowledge and wisdom. Your cultural heritage, what you've learned academically, what you've learned from experience and others. And you're taking it into what I would call the organizational development world. And I would just love to hand the microphone over to you. I'd love to hear, hear about your journey. I learned I learned some bits and pieces along our our time together, but we'd love to just have you recount to the people listening the journey that's brought you to the place you are now and how what what is the present like for you and and your vision of of the future? And what what's working well for you? And if there are any challenges. I would love to have you tell people how they can get in touch with you, so I will I will hand you the talking stick. I will reserve the right as a host to pop in with the question from from time to time. But please, please tell tell. Tell us the the legend of Sonja.

Ssanyu Birigwa: Kirk. Thank you. I have to say, you are a great storyteller. And listening to your reflections, listening to the ways in which. The offerings that were placed between us has continued to be truly of support. And I'd even say service to your own well-being, which I know has expanded out to the people that you love and care about, work with, connect with. And that's that, that's that's that. That is what I hope to be able to infuse in the world as my passion is to create healthier communities. And we can't do that until we've actually taken a good look at the eye, our personal self, and to listen to you in your journey. Just made me smile and made me laugh. It brought me back to those moments in person with you. And I loved how you said she wasn't touching me. That that is true. And not. There are a few moments where I would have to. I feel the energy, especially when we're able to be with the physical body. Needed the the place of holding and listening to a story a family member shared with me recently about meeting an older woman who was being helped in the car to put her seatbelt on, and she held the person's hand tightly before they let go of having put the seatbelt on her. And she said, hold on a while. I haven't touched a person in five years.

Ssanyu Birigwa: Wow.

Ssanyu Birigwa: And it makes me think about why we do also need touch, and also to how when we focus in on the connection between the self and other, the thought in itself is almost as powerful as touch. So thank you for sharing those moments of of reflection that we've had together. I am an 80th generation healer from Uganda. And what this lineage has taught me about Western medicine. Has taken me probably the last five years to really deepen my understanding of how the nervous system determines what we can hold. And what do I mean about what can we hold? Well, right now. I am doing a lot of research and. Understanding through being a lecturer and adjunct professor of narrative medicine at Columbia University and this lecture that I teach every spring at the medical school spirituality and health is around the self to have the ability to listen so we can be fully present with the other. And in this case, whilst I teach, it's it's, you know, the physician and patient. But what I've trained to understand that has taken me beyond narrative medicine and the clinical understanding and the research that I'm doing. With University of Michigan, to be specific, around the support we can give through narrative medicine practice to doctors who do telehealth visits. There's a lot that is happening with the AI telehealth connection and building healthier communities. That narrative medicine practice really helps to embolden and support the well-being of the physician. And so, as I've steeped my my experience in teaching and research and also experimenting and connecting what I understand about my lineage to help those. Connect, sometimes Extract, sometimes dissolve, sometimes just recognize the stories that live in our bones. And my clan of the bone healers now know the potency that which our body holds information.

Ssanyu Birigwa: And it's been almost a decade or so since I've created and built what I call narrative Bridge. And it began with my colleague and dear friend cohort from Columbia whilst we were in grad school. Us to really look at how to bring leadership into healthcare. But first, we needed an entryway and that entryway into leadership and support of the healthcare systems and individuals who are a part of the system Is the framework of narrative medicine, which is the paying attention to oneself so they can pay attention to the other, to. Then, once that connection is made of observation, one creates an understanding of who is before them. And that one I speak is the clinician or the leader or. The mother? The father. It's all of us. We are that one who, when we are able to deeply listen to ourselves, we are able to listen to the other. And somewhere in that process, trust is developed. And once we create that trust and that deep listening, that happens when we are present in the moment with the other. So much can happen. And in terms of the health care field healing, specifically healing, connection information being exchanged. Begins to support that container. And people will then begin to have positive stories to tell, whether it's within the health care space or technology or equity and diversity and inclusion, wherever that might be. We are building trust. And so where I understand we need a protocol. Allowed me to deepen into creating the pause three method, which Kirk, I know that we worked with quite a bit. It's usually how I like to set the tone, and the tone is deepening into a gratitude state to create an intention for ourselves, or maybe for our community.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So for those who haven't had the experience, can you describe the pause three method a bit?

Ssanyu Birigwa: Yes. So there are three parts and I call it the GIF. I was trying to be a little cheeky so GIF.

Ssanyu Birigwa: Yeah.

Ssanyu Birigwa: And it's based in gratitude intention making and forgiveness. And as this protocol is enacted within our nervous system, mindfully we downshift this nervous system in under three minutes. And we've practiced this. I've trained different clinicians and physicians in this. And my students, I. I offer this as a tool to learn how to evoke, literally within the body, what it feels like to be in gratitude, to then shift into a moment of presence within ourselves, to create an intention and to use our imagination to feel into what it would feel like to be in action of that very intention. And from that, there's the forgiveness. We all make mistakes. We are not perfect, and we can be very honest with ourselves and the other and take accountability. And part of that accountability is also then to forgive ourselves and then release, not to hold on to these bags of shame and, and discomfort that which actually creates literally disease within the body that then can manifest oftentimes into something very real that a clinician, a doctor, needs to pay attention to. We all have read different, you know I think, you know, many of us have read different articles and or if you're really into the science of mindfulness but also energy and also how oxygen, when brought into the body at certain rhythms, can literally change the molecules in our bodies and create healing. So the method is based on science and also the ability to tap into something that some might call woo woo. And I have a student who, who, who really stands in that space of saying, yes, I am woo woo. Well, what if we made the woo woo natural and normal? What would it look like for us to accept that we are energy that we can feel and address, some of which we may never have addressed before through the lens of story?

Ssanyu Birigwa: Right.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And that that that resonates with me and my experience. And when you said narrative medicine and what I, what I thought about was the elements of our time together, where you would read me a piece, read me a poem, and ask me to write a reflection and read that back to you that led to it, led to a dialogue. And I think you just said something about a feeling. I don't know if you just said feeling things you haven't felt before or realizations you haven't realized before, but I, I certainly had that experience.

Ssanyu Birigwa: Yes.

Ssanyu Birigwa: And we say in narrative medicine practice that this is not therapy, but it does feel therapeutic. And I think that's what the intention is. When we tell stories. I've witnessed actually that is the intention that we are holding within when we are telling our own personal stories, whether it's comfortable or not, to share that story and what we're seeing. And when I say we my colleagues, those who I've worked with beyond the institution and teaching at Columbia but when facilitating trust building for executive teams or running wellbeing initiatives for hospital systems. Something keeps shifting, and I keep meeting leaders who've who've built not just material wealth, but really the wealth of of their wellbeing systems, family, you know, connection. And still there there's a piece of misalignment. Because in these four areas that I call this wealth frequency that I bring into leadership teams we, we sometimes feel depleted.

Ssanyu Birigwa: And what are the four?

Ssanyu Birigwa: So where I, I begin is understanding wealth frequency from the lens of how wealth in itself can also be an extractor if we're not understanding, you know, where we might be depleted. And it's not about bringing in more tools to find, you know, ways to connect to the to the body. But it's it's more about refining. And so the four areas or I'll start with the three right now is health is relational. So the health, you know, we have our physical health, you know, we work out maybe we we eat well, eat clean, as one might say. But sometimes our nervous system is in disharmony. We might feel often that we are oscillating between fight or flight maybe having a hard time resting. What I'm witnessing in leaders that I work with is this piece of health. Because the material wealth. And that's the fourth, the material wealth, actual money is there. However, perhaps there's a little more attention that needs to be placed on the health frequency, which I just spoke about. But then there's that relational, you know, our family is intact. You know, we we are in loving relationships. But maybe there's a shift that's needing to be had in, in our work. Perhaps you might be noticing and what I've witnessed and many people that I've worked with in the last, I would say 3 to 5 years that the relationships at work are, are a bit more extractive than they used to be.

Ssanyu Birigwa: There's more of this giving, giving, giving and less reciprocity. And I also believe it's the time in which we are in globally. There's there's a global shift happening. And then there's the spiritual. Sometimes we are disconnected to knowing ourselves. Not like knowing who we are. Who are we? You can see the signs sometimes through, often a link to the work that one does where you're feeling the need to shift and change. Maybe not necessarily leave the organization that you work for. Or if you're an entrepreneur, you know, you know, just, you know, bag your, you know, your endeavors and start something new. But a reiteration maybe we are seeing the signs, the individuals seeing and feeling the signs. But maybe there's a bit of distrust within ourselves. Whereby we don't actually act upon what one might call intuition and also real lived experiences. And so what I'm, I, I'm really focused in on and bridging into leadership and development is that most people think wealth is what you make. But wealth is actually what you can hold and what you described. Kirk, in the beginning of telling us stories that connect to how we met and what we did together, is you learned not only how to hold your wealth frequency, which is the material, the health, the relationship, the relationship, and also the spiritual wealth, but also to learn how to move energy, to feel better, to feel good. And so that's that's where I. Live.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And I think of it I think of it as feeling light, like after the time we had together. And I just felt light like a, a a lightness or the absence of heaviness, I guess. But, you know, the, you know, some of the things that you taught me to do I can bring, I can bring that that condition that that those dynamics back you know, to some degree, probably probably not as light as after four hours. You in person? Sure.

Ssanyu Birigwa: But I.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Can make.

Ssanyu Birigwa: That.

Dr. Kirk Adams: I can make myself. I can make myself lighter.

Ssanyu Birigwa: Yes, exactly. And what a privilege that we have to to spend four hours on ourselves. Yeah. You know that I'm very aware, too, that I'm in a space of privilege and I. And that is part of the work, too, is to bring it out of the gates of a university system and share it. Right. And you said you can take these tools and feel lighter. You know, that's that's the work that I'm helping. Institute. In order to build cultures where individuals, leaders, clinicians can actually breathe and move beyond the struggle, the the barriers, the self inflicted barriers often. And also to understand that the slowing down is to an activation where we have been in our organizations, in our lives and our families and our communities, and what we use to get to where we've been. Yeah, we can't use those same tools. They need to be refined in some way to get to some place else. And that's important to me to understand. That's important for me to to share.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So I'm very curious about two things. First, you said something astounding. I'm an 80th generation, which is an amazing thing to be able to say. So I would love to hear about that lineage and how that wisdom was transferred to you. But you know, I had we had we had a one on one experience which was very much focused on me. But, you know, now you're taking your wisdom and knowledge and skills. And, you know, as I read your introduction, an architect of systemic transformation frameworks that enable organizations to operate with authentic alignment between their stated values and daily practice practices. So, you know, I'm super, super curious about 79 generations that preceded you. Let's start there. But also also, how do you translate what you did with me as a particular specific interaction between two people? And how do you translate into that work, working at an organizational level? Thank you for asking.

Ssanyu Birigwa: Those two questions. Yes. So I have a father he's Ugandan we call him Tata. And Tata is a living. He is the living chief of the bone healers. And the story goes. I am from the Buganda tribe of Uganda. And our kingdom, the Buganda Kingdom has a king. And hundreds of years ago, many generations ago, the king would be in his palace. And as we probably have heard stories of, you know kingdoms, the king is not necessarily always kind to his his people. Right. So sometimes the king would beat individuals and would break their bones. When that would happen, his staff would call upon my clan, the bone healers, who are seen, as we could say, the indigenous doctors. Now, that is true. We have, to this day about 45 minutes outside of Kampala, the bone healing clinic that is run by my family and the bone healers. And oftentimes I'm I hope your viewers understand, you know, the the tuk tuk and the we call them boda bodas. The folks on motorcycles and, you know, ride around the countryside or not even the countryside. It's a form of transportation. It's like Uber. Okay, but on the bicycle. On a motorcycle. Well, if you can imagine very congested areas of transport. These boda bodas, they fall off the bike and they get hurt often. Well, we're known. Our clinic is known for the boda bodas to come to because when they go to a regular facility, a clinic they complain that they're just wrapped up, their bones are wrapped up, and they're given, you know, Tylenol, Vicodin, you know, whatever it might be, they're drugged up.

Ssanyu Birigwa: And that was very detailed within stories from individuals who I met at the clinic not wanting to be drugged up. And there are individuals who don't want that. So we have a way of using nature, using certain herbs, using certain leaves to help the body heal faster, quicker. And it is an ancient practice. So let's go back to the kingdom of Buganda. Individuals who started to get to know the bone healer. We're starting to speak about the bone healer having special abilities to connect to the stars and understanding that they were being. Channeled information that 1st May not have ever understood, and sharing it with the community. Individuals who who felt the need to be closer to, say, this healer, this indigenous healer would come to our house that we called the House of Chico. And that house is a special house where those who would stay there would have dreams. And the story is that these dreams would help them, you know, understand how to fix a problem or prophesize to them what they needed to do in their life to, you know deal with x, y, z that they were dealing with. That's, you know, just keeping the story simple. But to give an understanding that there was information being shared through our lineage and through this house of Chico. So not only was the healer fixing bones, but they were channeling information for people that. Needed and wanted that connection to spirit, as I will use so in these generations to be I understood later on in life that there was a connection that I too had to this lineage.

Ssanyu Birigwa: Have I fixed a broken bone? No, but I have helped my clients accelerate in their healing when they have had issues with their body, with their bones, with their nervous system, with their digestive system. There's a potency and an understanding that I, too, have healing hands. I do channel, I do receive information, and the ancestors speak through me. I have had a beautiful experience of myself, and I call it a beautiful experience because it led me to the person I am today where I woke up paralyzed from my shoulders to my fingers. And I was introduced to a prophet. And through the introduction, through the sitting with and being of connection to him and his community to also a seer all being consciously aware at this time that I was on a journey of connecting with indigenous wisdom and knowledge and healing, because my experience in the healthcare system, going to emergency rooms, going to different, different doctors who would not have a diagnosis for me, some of your listeners and maybe even yourself, you've experienced going to the doctor feeling ill, but yet coming home with no diagnosis, not knowing what it is. My God, it's scary. No, it's it's frustrating. Yes. So this was an experience of mine where it brought me to understand. I needed to understand. I needed to further connect, not even understand. Connect. The threads, the connections to indigenous healing practices. And this western. State of what we call the healthcare system.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. So now here's the tricky part. How are you bringing indigenous knowledge, wisdom, and healing into organizations that

Ssanyu Birigwa: Well, here we go.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Pretty much rooted in Western ethos and how, how how do you do that through story.

Ssanyu Birigwa: And that's telling my own personal stories of the health, of the healing. But Often times it's through the lens of how do we trust our systems? How do we begin to trust our leaders? And to be honest, we can. We all have the ability to choose which stories to tell. So here today, I get to really dive deep into some vulnerable areas of my story and details of who I am. I do believe that the way to infuse what I've described is through what we call narrative bridge narratives of trust. And how do I do that? I build in our clinical practice of narrative medicine, which is to use story, literature, artwork to slow down, to, frankly, slow down. And you talked about I would read you a poem have you write to a writing prompt and oftentimes what was written, you were surprised as to what came out? Yes. Yes. Right.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yes.

Ssanyu Birigwa: And that right there. Just writing for five minutes. When being guided in a way that allows the individual.

Dr. Kirk Adams: To.

Ssanyu Birigwa: Be inspired.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yes. I remember it was a lot of like, childhood stuff that I hadn't thought about in a long, long time, but obviously it was significant. So yes.

Ssanyu Birigwa: And that's that's where I begin. Do I want to bring leaders back to their childhood in a group setting? When we only have maybe, you know, a half a day or 90 minutes? No. But do I want to bring them to reflect on how they have been leading as individuals and as teams? Yes, I do. Do I believe it's important to touch upon some EQ stuff? I do. And is it important to be real honest and maybe even pull back some layers? Of oneself to maybe even expose themselves to their colleagues, to create a space of trust and maybe deeper belonging and camaraderie? Yes. Is it uncomfortable sometimes.

Ssanyu Birigwa: They have a saying that diamonds are made out of pressure. It's a knowing I would actually even say right. Yeah. So do we sometimes feel like we're in a pressure cooker when change needs to occur. I think so. And that's where I find myself standing in the center of. Us is guiding individuals, maybe out of the pressure cooker, maybe through it, maybe towards it because they haven't felt the pressure yet. Maybe, maybe they're in a space of innovation and needing to understand how to get across the threshold to a new place of operation. Well, there needs to be true understanding of who you work with, what their leadership styles are. Maybe it's the time where you move against the grain, as I say, to what you would expect an individual to do. Perhaps that conversation that's being guided reveals something about that individual that perhaps is a better fit for them. And I say, over yonder.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, yeah. So what? What are the dynamics that would motivate an organization to say, we need a bone healer up in here now? Right. What what what brings these organizations to a place where they're able to embrace really open. They need they need to open up and be somewhat vulnerable to do this work. And my experience is with large organizations, both for profit and nonprofit, is their openness and vulnerability is not that common. So I'm curious what motivates organizations to take that step.

Ssanyu Birigwa: You know, it it takes a lot of trust. It takes connection. I often am found through individuals who have either worked with me one on one and in that space of spirituality and narrative medicine and, and deep listening you know, rewiring our nervous system essentially is, is what we are doing in my private practice. So building literally a bridge from the private practice into corporate offerings has been challenging. But sure, I've been put on this earth to break barriers.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, I'm guessing it's somewhat like disability inclusion, which is what I focus on. And typically it's because someone has a passion around making a more inclusive world for people with disabilities. And very often it's because they have a have had a child who has a disability.

Ssanyu Birigwa: Yes.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And now all of a sudden their their paradigm has shifted and they understand that people with impairments are human beings and need to be treated with respect and dignity, and they get very motivated about that. So I, I'm guessing if someone who is in a leadership position within an organization has had that personal experience with you, I could see how they could be motivated to to bring that knowledge and healing into the into the organization.

Ssanyu Birigwa: And to part of being vulnerable myself. When individuals do hear my story, when I get an opportunity to share it it really informs the way that I facilitate, the way that I make connections. So to go back to your question, how do I do this? Well, it's been through word of mouth. And so we are doing a little reiteration of expanding the work beyond healthcare you know, beyond the framework of clinical spaces. It's really to your point of what you talked about, of inclusion and diversity is really that we have the power to fuel or to use inclusivity to fuel exceptional performance. And if an organization is not wanting to do that, then I'm, I'm I'm peeved. Most organizations do. And my whole point is, hey, we have to do things differently. You know, I'm guided by you know, let's I'm being academic here. Truly. A guided pedagogy. Okay. And so when I. What I understand this to be, you know, we all are a part of diverse journeys that have really shaped a, a unique experience and has influenced. Who we have become. But one thing that I have seen is that and witness in all different areas of leadership, like I said, whether it's healthcare or technology you know, disability frameworks around death and dying and AI, I worked with an organization that was really focused in on how to use their diversity, Equity and Inclusion board and their AI board.

Ssanyu Birigwa: How do they how do they come together to work together? Now that's that was interesting, right? What I saw and I'm seeing is that understanding others personal narratives is the key to developing trust is the key in fostering collaboration. It is the key that's driving innovation and quite frankly, the key to achieving results that exceeds everyone's expectations. Why? Because we're paying attention. We're deeply listening to individual's experiences. So what narrative bridge my company brings, which is an extension of who I am. We bring research based understanding, customization of this narrative medicine clinical training adaptable for organizations to help their leaders and their employees simply tell their stories and to relate to one another, person to person. Well, you think that's quite simple, but the by the lack of buy in with organizations that are actually stating that this is what they want for their employees is. I'm choosing my words very carefully right now. Has brought upon a challenge for individuals who do this work.

Ssanyu Birigwa: But you know, I stick to my mission. Our commitment is for inclusion as a strategic underpinning of what we believe to be true, that our personal narratives provides insights for us to develop better relationships. That then feeds right into the groundwork for trust. Deeper trust, not just surface trust. The trust that you need to to create and and cross over the threshold into innovation that unlocks what we've seen. Deeper productivity. What I just spoke about innovation which equals growth. Wow. Aren't these the employees that we want for the future? Aren't these the entrepreneurs that we want for the future? So we're really solving something that I, that I, that I put into, if you could imagine a circle or three circles within a larger circle. So we call it these three points of learning to pause you, you learn that with me in our one on one sessions to then practice that. Well, you told us some really wonderful stories and about learning and using that in your own practice. Well then that third one is continuing to learn about yourself by taking that pause and by practicing. That's growth. Well, once we then have reflection within that, that space there, that's around the pause, the learning and the practice. I have seen that create maximum impact and growth for everyone, individuals and the entire team, which to me is creating healthier communities.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So for you, this time has flown by.

Ssanyu Birigwa: I know how that happened.

Dr. Kirk Adams: But if people want to get in touch with you to talk about your private practice, where they can work with you individually, or if people want to talk to you about narrative bridge and how they can bring this knowledge, wisdom and healing into their organizations, how can people get in touch?

Ssanyu Birigwa: Well, they can always email me. I am at sunoo at Sunoo comm. You can really deepen into what I do individually. On my website, Soniya comm. And you know what I am focused in on, which we talked a bit about, is the understanding that we all want to grow. And I think some of us might be in positions of our lives, in our careers where we're taking a moment to pause and think about what's our next iteration of life.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yes.

Ssanyu Birigwa: And so if we're dysregulated, I come from the time where and also to having lived between East Africa and Newton, Massachusetts. So I'm often someone who is not of the majority.

Ssanyu Birigwa: When we hold on to all those traumas and coming from that time and space of you work hard, you know, be disciplined, you know, stay focused. You know, again work hard hard hustle hustle. What are you doing. You're wasting your time. You know, like we learned how to just work and work hard. And many of us have achieved such great things. Titles, accolades. And maybe did not spend enough time releasing from that fight or flight, that dysregulation from that hustle. Hustle. Work hard. Hard. Harder. Yeah. So what I'm building here doesn't require all of us to be on all the time. We have to learn to pause, to slow down, to reactivate.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yes.

Ssanyu Birigwa: Right. And so. The pause three method is really here to soften the nervous system. And the intention is to orient us towards what matters. And the forgiveness is to unhook us from what's draining us. So these three steps, under three minutes anywhere, is the foundation of everything that I do. And that leaders I don't care what system you come from, what organization you lead, what industry you're in, you have to take that moment to just pause. And I bet you if we did a series of leaders of large organizations, small organizations wouldn't matter. All of them say they probably. Well, I have to just take a moment to take a deep breath. Right. That's the pause.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah.

Ssanyu Birigwa: Right. I run, I run every morning. I look at my shoes and I get in those shoes and I run, I. So we all have a way of doing things right. I'm just here to help individuals and organizations to refine it. And so Narrative Bridge comm is where you can also find information on how I work with leaders and organizations. I'm on LinkedIn and I have several ways to work. One on one. Just contact me and let's make it happen.

Dr. Kirk Adams: I'm here so I can give a personal testimony that I work with on you, and if you feel like you are mired in the mucky muck, you want to feel lighter. Learn how to pause and learn how to forgive yourself for your human foibles. Yep. Reach out. Reach out to Sonya. She she is the real deal. And if you want to get in touch with me again, I would love to talk to anyone about inclusion from the through a disability lens in particular. Kirk Adams at Dr. Kirk Adams comm, or Kirk Adams, PhD, on LinkedIn. And thank you so much for listening to the podcast by Kirk Adams. I'd be remiss if I didn't say whatever platform you you're using, like this podcast, please. And we'll we'll we'll be back with you next time. And, Sonya, I'd love to have you back sometime in 2026 to learn about how narrative bridge is progressing and all the good you're doing in the world.

Ssanyu Birigwa: Thank you Kirk. I would love to come back. This is this is wonderful.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Thank you. Awesome.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Thank you so much.

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