Join Jed Wallace and Andy Rotherham for an illuminating conversation with Margaret "Macke" Raymond, one of education's most influential researchers. As Director of CREDO (Center for Research on Education Outcomes) at Stanford University and Distinguished Research Fellow at the Hoover Institution, Macke has spent two decades producing the definitive studies on charter school performance that shape policy debates nationwide.

In this episode, Macke pulls back the curtain on how rigorous education research actually works, from the methodological challenges of measuring school effectiveness to the evolution of accountability systems across states. She discusses CREDO's groundbreaking longitudinal studies, the complexities of comparing charter and traditional public schools, and why context matters more than headlines suggest.

The conversation explores the intersection of research and policy-making, touching on California's "gnarly" accountability system with its 50+ indicators, the role of charter management organizations in scaling successful models, and the ongoing debates about how we measure educational success. Macke also shares insights from Stanford's "tectonics" project and reflects on how education research has evolved over her distinguished career.

This is essential listening for education policy professionals, researchers, advocates, and anyone who wants to understand the data behind the debates. Macke's expertise and the hosts' thoughtful questions create a substantive discussion that goes far beyond talking points to examine the real challenges and opportunities in American education.

Topics Covered:

•CREDO's methodology and longitudinal research approach

•Charter school performance measurement and accountability

•The evolution of education policy research

•State accountability systems and their effectiveness

•The role of research in shaping education policy

•Challenges in scaling successful educational models

Resources and Links:

CREDO and Macke Raymond's Work:

•CREDO Charter Schools Reports: https://credo.stanford.edu/research-reports/charter-studies/

•Macke's "Fun House Mirror" Hoover Summit Introduction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeklNPBF9RE

•Previous WonkyFolk CREDO Episode with Macke: https://www.charterfolk.org/wonkyfolk-vol-5-special-credo-episode-with-macke-raymond/

Hoover Institution Resources:

•Hoover Institution K-12 Education Work: https://www.hoover.org/focus-areas/reforming-k-12-education

•Education Futures Council Report: https://www.hoover.org/press/education-futures-council-unveils-report-ours-solve-once-and-for-all

• Andy’s PMC fundraiser mentioned in the episode: https://profile.pmc.org/Andrew-Rotherham

Additional Reading:

•Tom Dee's Ed Week Article on Research and Practice: https://www.edweek.org/leadership/opinion-high-quality-research-rarely-informs-classroom-practice-why/2025/09

•Diane Ravitch's New Autobiography: https://amzn.to/3JfpRne

•Andy's "Craft versus Politics" Article: https://www.the74million.org/article/rotherham-phonics-whole-language-balanced-literacy-the-problem-isnt-that-we-dont-know-how-to-teach-reading-its-politics/

•"Buck Up!" on Eduwonk: https://eduwonk.substack.com/p/buck-up

About Our Guest: Margaret "Macke" Raymond is Director of the Center for Research on Education Outcomes (CREDO) at Stanford University and Distinguished Research Fellow at the Hoover Institution. Her research has shaped education policy debates for over two decades.

Key Discussion Points:

•How rigorous education research methodology works in practice

•The challenges of measuring school effectiveness across different contexts

•California's complex accountability system with 50+ indicators

•The role of charter management organizations in scaling success

•Why context matters more than headlines in education policy

•The intersection of academic research and policy implementation

•Stanford's "tectonics" project and innovation in education research