126 Why Paddling is 90% of Surfing - And How to Master It

Podcast - SURF MASTERY

Content provided by Michael Frampton and Surf Mastery Podcast. All podcast content including episodes, graphics, and podcast descriptions are uploaded and provided directly by Michael Frampton and Surf Mastery Podcast or their podcast platform partner. If you believe someone is using your copyrighted work without your permission, you can follow the process outlined here https://podcastplayer.com/legal.

2M ago

MP3•Episode home

Are you wasting energy every time you paddle out — and missing waves because of it?

Most surfers spend 99% of their time in the water not actually riding waves. They're paddling, positioning, sitting, or struggling to get back out — and often doing it inefficiently. If you're tired of burning out in the lineup and still not catching the waves you want, this episode is for you.

Discover the three most common ways surfers waste energy — and how to fix them to catch more waves with less effort.
Learn why your pop-up is the most important move in surfing — and how improving it could change everything.
Explore how shifting from a fixed to a growth mindset will fast-track your progression and elevate your surfing experience.

Listen now to learn how to become a “lazy surfer” — and start catching more waves with far less effort.

Rob’s Website:

https://www.surfingpaddling.com

Episode Summary:

In this episode, Michael Frampton welcomes back surf paddling expert Rob Case to dive deep into the often-overlooked side of surfing: everything that happens before you stand up. They explore the massive role paddling technique plays in wave-catching, the evolution of surf coaching, and the mindset shift needed for adult learners to truly progress. Rob discusses insights from his new book, shares practical ways to reduce energy waste in the water, and explains why becoming a "lazy surfer" might be the smartest thing you can do. Whether you're a beginner or a seasoned surfer, this conversation will change the way you look at the ocean and your time in it.

Key Points:

Paddling is Most of Surfing:
Rob highlights that around 99% of surfing is not standing on a wave — it’s paddling, positioning, and ocean awareness.
The Three Biggest Energy Wasters:
Most surfers waste energy in paddling, wave-catching, and getting back out after a ride. Rob explains how improving technique in each area leads to more waves and less burnout.
Why Pop-Ups Matter Most:
The takeoff is surfing’s most dynamic and demanding move. Mastering it is key to consistent, confident wave-riding.
The Art vs. Sport Debate:
Surfing is both art and sport. Treating it like an art form invites deeper curiosity and long-term progression.
The Growth Mindset Advantage:
Adult learners can progress quickly by being deliberate and focused — and by embracing the role of student.
Becoming a “Lazy Surfer”:
Rob’s coaching philosophy is about helping surfers do more with less: catch more waves, waste less energy, and surf with more efficiency and grace.
The Value of Observation & Ocean Reading:
Watching the ocean with purpose, understanding swell periods, currents, and timing are vital skills to develop.
Behind the Book:
Rob shares the challenges and revelations of writing his new book — and why it’s designed to give every surfer access to paddling mastery, regardless of budget.

Transcript:

SMP126RobCase

Michael Frampton: welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast, the podcast that helps surfers to catch more waves and surf with more speed, style, and grace. Today we have a return guest, uh, as Rob Case. He first appeared back in episode 12 and then again in episode 91, and Rob specializes in surfing, paddling, or paddling for surfing.

Now I have just released a course, which is all about what you do or improving what you do between when the surfboard is under your arm and when the surfboard is under your feet, because every other surfing course is all about what do you do when you're standing up. However, 99. Maybe more. 99% of what we do when we are surfing is not actually surfing.

It is sitting there looking at the ocean, trying to predict where waves are coming or paddling around trying to catch them. The thing is, what I mentioned in my course I don't specialize in is paddling, which is a lot of that time is spent paddling. , I refer that to Rob, that is Rob's specialty. And, , ideally you can get in front of Rob and do a one-on-one, , in Northern California or get to one of his courses and, , get some hands-on experience if you can't do that.

He's got an awesome YouTube channel and his own podcast and he's just released a book.

Rob Case: Yeah, that's awesome.

Michael Frampton: So you can, you can get into the details of it. Rob, welcome back to the show. Why the book? That's a

Rob Case: good, good question. , It's a good sleeping aid. Have you, have you tried that yet? I listened to my own, my own podcast to get to sleep.

, Now the book, the book was, I, I wanted it as another avenue for surfers to get the information, but what I realized as I was writing it, and it took several years to finally get it completed, but. As I'm kind of going through it and putting it together, I'm realizing that I can put a lot more detail, as you said, into the book, , than I can into the online course on the videos.

So a lot of the things that I was saying to clients when we were working one-on-one and in person or in the small groups, I, I didn't have in the online course. Those little nuances, , of clarification and the book allowed me to have all this time and space to kind of put all that in for those that really wanted that.

, So that, that was kind of the main purpose for the book, , was just a, another avenue, but also to allow people that want those nuances that, that, that actually learn better by text,, to, to get that kind of avenue. , And then also, you know, to allow people that can't afford my in-person stuff to get the information anyway, so now I.

Nobody really has an excuse not to work on paddling technique. Right. Or to learn about it. Right. , Before it was, I can't afford your in person, which I totally understand. That's, and so I did the online course and okay, that's too expensive. Okay, now you got the book there. There's really nothing. And then I even have free resources like the YouTube and my blog and the podcast.

So no excuse. If you really want to improve your paddling technique, and I'll clarify that. I work on paddling technique, not so much fitness. I, I do have fitness, but fitness is more other people's realms. Um, I'm, I'm really focused on the movement and, um, driving that, that, uh, neural pathway in your brain so that you're doing it over and over again without having to think about it as, as you've witnessed and been a part of.

Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. I'm witnessed and been a part of it in many levels. When a, you know, when a 12-year-old kid on. Shortboard paddles past you and you think that you're a good paddler, and you're like, what is he doing? And it wasn't, I always thought, you know, before I, um, came across your work, I always thought I was just stronger somehow.

He surfs more than me. Or, but no, it's all about efficiency and, and, and technique. And interestingly, it's something not a lot of surfers really, really think about. Um, they have the same attitude I used to have before discovering your work. They sort of just dismiss it as, oh, it's something that experienced surfers do or gifted athletes sort of naturally have.

But no, you can, uh, you can definitely learn it. And I like the fact that there is a book because. You know, you've, some people learn by reading a book and the book gives you so much room to add more details. , That's how we've learned throughout history a lot of the time is books, you know, videos and stuff are quite, quite new.

, And you think of any other individual sport like tennis or golf, there's, there's go on Amazon, there's books galore. Yeah, it's, it's kind of strange. There's not that many books on surfing. I dunno why. Um, I guess surfing's such a new thing and certainly, you know, accepting that you are a surf nerd and you want to really learn that's even newer than surfing itself.

You know, even 10 years ago it certainly wasn't cool to have a, a surf coach or to analyze your paddling technique. I think now it's becoming a lot more accepted. , There still is a little bit of that there, but, I mean, I, gosh, I remember watching. Was it, it, I think Olo, when Olo first surfed the box and he openly admitted that he, he had been up since 4:00 AM practicing his popups on his bed.

So Really? Yeah. So even the best in the world, they actually, behind the scenes, you'd be surprised how much work they're putting in and how much geeking out that they're doing in order just to get that much better than their competitors. And, , you know, there's no reason why we as surfers just, you know, as recreational surfers, just, I remember going through a phase where I was so, I kind of thought surfing was the selfish pursuit and, you know, why would I, you know, there's, why would I bother putting all that time and effort into it?

And then I realized, you know, who cares? It's surfing's my thing. I'm gonna give it everything I got. And, , that stage in my life where I really obsessed about surfing and was, you know, reading books on how to read water and taking fitness courses and doing, spending time, coming to see you and, and watching your content.

That obsessed, that period of time where I obsessed over everything surfing. , I never regret that. And it, it's amazing how much better you can become.

Rob Case: Yeah, absolutely. I, it's funny you kind of stirred something in my brain why surfing is so late to the game for getting information, for having books, for having coaches and you know, like every other sport like you said, has these things.

So is it, is it because we just have never really viewed it as a sport? Or have we never viewed it as a serious sport? Or is it not a sport? You know, those are the debatable questions. I, I think the Olympics really helped quite a bit. 'cause leading up to the acceptance in the Olympics. And even before that, MC Fanning kind of started it all well before that.

But the Olympics I think really rocketed coaching to a huge degree. And I get really serious surfers come to me now, and they're, they're very open-minded. And I'm always, I'm always kind of like, okay, well how do I, how skeptical is this person that's, that's always, you know, kind of these old school minded surfers that don't really think that technique is going to change anything.

And, uh, they're becoming much more open minded as they walk in the door, as, uh, as opposed to 10 years ago when I started the in-person stuff. So, really interesting that you brought that up. Um, yeah, I don't know. I don't, what do you think, do you think it's 'cause of the Olympics? Do you think it's just the evolution of, of the demographic of surfers?

So there's a lot new surfers that are older now. They're thinkers. Um, as opposed to when we started it was like, oh, we're just kids. And, you know, the kids really held up the industry, but now not so much.

Michael Frampton: I, I think it's, it's more psychological than anything. , And it can often start with how you define surfing.

, Like you mentioned, what is it a sport? , I like to define surfing as an art more than anything else. , And you might think, oh, that takes away from training as a sport. Well, actually no, it doesn't because you think of music and if you're into music, then you'd learn music theory and you practice.

You learn if you're playing guitar, you learn your scales and your chord shapes and you, you practice your timing with, with a metronome or, and so that you can play. Yeah. Right. You practice your fundamentals, right? Yeah, exactly. Or if you're an artist, you might spend a week doing doism, learning a different style of, or using a different type of paint or a different type of brush.

You're not actually creating art per se. You're just learning to use a new technique or, or a new piece of equipment or, or even a new form of art. And you go, a painter might try sculpture for a while and come back to painting. And so I think if we have that attitude as a surfer where it's an art and it gives it a bit more depth, first of all, than it just being a sport or a recreational activity, , I think that helps us to be more fascinated and obsessed and immersed in surfing.

And it almost gives yourself permission to, to dive in deeper and think. 'cause I mean, logically think about it, most of the time I don't stand up on my board. Why am I watching all these, why am I watching all these bottom turn and top turn techniques when. I actually just really want to catch more waves.

Really? Yeah. Because that's what it's about. So I should probably be better at paddling and better at reading the ocean. , And better at choosing breaks that aren't as crowded and better at choosing the right surfboard for the conditions. Like being a better surfer is, I think the technique of your bottom turn, et cetera, is such a small, small part of it.

And I think it's, first of all, it's great that a lot of people are diving into that mm-hmm. And getting better at that stuff. But I think it's, it's often misguided because it's so hard to, to be focused in the moment, to change the way you bottom turn, you've gotta get it's, you've gotta get everything else right first.

Yeah. You've gotta be a confident

Rob Case: waterman. I tell you guys all the time, like, I have the easy job. I can make somebody take thousands of strokes and I can correct them, you know, within the first five. Whereas a surf coach, you need a designated part on the, on the wave. , The wave needs to be shaped a certain way.

They need to be balanced, they need to be of sound consciousness to do something that you've told them to do. There's, like you said, there's all these nuances just to that one thing and everything happens so quickly. How is a surf coach ever able to really get that repetitive motor learning? It's, it's, it's, it's really difficult.

It's really, really difficult. So I, I have the easy job and I, I stop when people stand up and then I'm like, I hand it off. I'm like, go, go, go work with a, a great surf coach. But yeah, it is a difficult job. Um, but I, you know, I think on an extension to that is. Surfers that are listening to this, the surfers that come, come to me are, are growth-minded.

It, it's, it's like you said, it's like a mindset. You are looking at art versus sport, but I think it's more just almost like a learning mindset. Are you open-minded? Are you, a growth kind of mindset? In which case, yeah, you're gonna get better at really anything you do. , You're gonna try to find resources to get better at those things.

Whereas a fixed mindset, they're kind of just happy where they're at. You know, they don't really want change until a, a, something devastating possibly happens. You know, like they get an injury. Yeah. Or. They, they're not able to get up to the feet anymore, or they're not able to catch waves anymore, or, you know, something stirs that there's an event that happens that then stirs them to become more growth minded.

Um, and, and I find that, it's funny when I, when I do, I do little trips, um, with clients and they're like, oh man, everybody's so cool on this trip. Like, where do you find all these people? I'm like, I, I don't, they come to me, you know? But I think there's a way in which I share my information that kind of weeds out the fixed minded folks from the growth minded folks.

And I think that's one thing I've, I've very happy that I feel like I've designed that and I get the best clients out of it, which is, you know, and they're not just, they're not just great to work with. They're just good people. You know? They're always wanting to learn and they're challenging me all the time, which is fantastic too.

So, uh, yeah, it's been a, it's been a fun ride, I think you said. Earlier you're like, wow. I think our first conversation in 2016, I started the in-person in 2015. I started the online and virtual coaching in 2011. So it's been a long time and, and there's been a, a bit of evolution and back then it was really just about helping surfers catch more waves was less effort.

That was always the tagline. And then it, it, it evolved into kind of helping them catch waves at that point. 'cause as we've discussed, 90% of the paddling we do is just paddling around. Right. And I, I think within the last. Two years or so, I, I've realized that my overall philosophy is I just want to create lazy surfers, and I, let me explain what I mean by that.

But it's basically, I want them to be able to catch the most ways with the least amount of effort. And what I found is that there's an extraordinary amount of energy waste that's happening in the ocean with surfers. And they're, they're really, if you look at it, there's three main areas where surfers.

Waste the most energy and it's one is paddling. And a lot of that can be cleaned up through technique first, and then there's also fitness on top of that can help. So that's, that's the number one thing. That's level one, right? That's, that's my level one. But then level two goes into the other two areas and, uh, another area where surfers burn a lot of energy and they don't really have to, they're just inefficient with their energy is wave catching.

So you could, you can work really, really hard and not catch the wave. That's the ultimate waste. You could work really, really hard and then go over the falls. That's, you know, it's wave catching and kind of popping up. Both of those are together, you know, standing up. If they're not fluid with that, if they don't have control, they're bored, then they're gonna burn energy 'cause they're gonna end up in the impact zone.

You could even see advanced surface that do catch waves, but they're taking 10, 11, 12 strokes to get it. That's ineff inefficient. So something in that process can be improved. So that's the second area where I see just tons of surfers burning a lot of energy. And then the last area that I realized just in the last couple years when I've kind of refined level two is getting out strategy and technique.

And it's, some of that's paddling. Yes, but, but the strategy of getting out, I can't tell you how many times I've seen this. Surfer catches first, second wave of the set, gets to the inside, turns around, immediately starts paddling back out. There's still a set coming in, there's still waves coming in, and they're going towards the impact zone.

Thinking in their mind that they're going to make it to the last wave and get the last wave of the set. Now you're laughing because you know what, in reality, you know, 99% of the time they do make it out and then the way the ocean goes flat, right? And they're like, oh, thank goodness I made it out. But what an extraordinary amount of wasted energy, you know, after your wave just kind of hang out.

Wait, you can duck dive, you can turtle ro, you can sea anchor all these waves with less energy and then wait for the set to pass and then go out, right? Yeah. And that's just, that's just one example of just getting out strategy and technique that there, there's, there's an extraordinary amount of waste that's happening.

Uh, and so level, level one is all about that first one technique. And then level two. Now really the main focus, the main goal is saving energy in those other areas. It's, it's wave catching and it's popping up and it's getting out. And, uh, it's been really fun to kind of go down that route with surfers because I start to introduce 'em in level one.

And then by the time I get to level two, they're, they're piecing it all together. And now they're like, a lot of 'em are kind of angry. They're like, man, I used to use surfing as like an exercise. Now I am the ultimate lazy surfer and not spending a lot of time, uh, a lot of energy, um, surfing, which, uh, which is really fun.

So for me, kind of the end of my journey is once I finish the level two online class, that's kind of my next big project. The book was a huge project for me. And then once the online level two is done, then I'll, I won't stop. I'll just, there's no more growing for me in that respect. And then I'll just kind of figure out what that point, what's, what's the next kind of coaching growth for me.

But that's, that's my overall goal. Um. Really just came to me in the process of writing this book and, and conducting a lot of level twos lately.

Michael Frampton: Oh cool. Yeah, that's a great tip. Yeah, I didn't even articulate, but I realize I do do that. If I catch the first wave of a set and I want to paddle back out, I don't, I just stay 'cause the wave breaks and it dissipates.

You can just kind of stay on the inside and glide over or gently duck dive the white water and all that water's coming in, it's gotta go back out. So the last wave of the set, once I've duck dive that, that's when I put in the paddling effort and you, you're going with the water drawing back out and you probably only have to duck dive the, you know, the, the secondary waves that are in between the main swell sets.

Exactly.

Rob Case: Yeah. And it's crazy. And it goes back to what you're talking about is, is being obsessed with learning about the ocean. If, if you don't know what's in the water that day, what, what? Types of swells, what periods, what direction you, you're already at a disadvantage because if, if someone listens to this right now and they're like, okay, every time I catch a wave, I'm gonna wait on the inside.

But they don't realize it's a short period swell and there's no real break, then what's the strategy? You know? Exactly. You know, like if they're not aware of where the currents are flowing, what's their strategy like, they're just gonna burn energy. Uh, and that I, I like you, I just nerd out on the oceanography side of it and learning more about the ocean.

And as experienced surfers, I think you were the one that said it when you took level two with me in the very early days, you were like, yeah, this is great information. It was something that I kind of already knew. An experienced surfer and you were like, I think a lot of experienced surfers know this stuff, but we couldn't connect the why right Now we can connect their why.

Like, okay, now I get it, why we would do this. But you ultimately learned it through all the years of learning about the ocean and learning about waves and learning and just getting out there in trial and error, which was really, I remember that you, you telling me that and I was like, oh, that's a

Michael Frampton: really, really good point.

Mm-hmm. Well, it goes back to what we started the conversation with is if, if you, if you grew up on the east coast of Australia and your dad and your uncle surfed and you've had a surfboard since you were four years old, by the time you are, by the time you are 17. You've got so much experience, you've picked up so much from your elders that you don't even realize and you don't even know what you, so of course you can go to Bali and just get on the tangs and go out and get barreled at double overhead waves, of course, without even thinking.

You don't have to nerd out about any of this stuff. But the listeners of this show are most likely didn't surf that much when they were younger, or probably more likely started as as adults. So you've got like 12, 15 years worth of information to try and pack in as an adult with a, a non rubbery body.

Yeah, you have to, if you want to get, if you truly really wanna get good at surfing, you have to start getting into some of the weeds and the details of this stuff. Uh, 'cause you didn't have that luxury as a 4-year-old with a, a dad who, who, who surfs living next to the beach. So I think culturally that's, that's part of it.

Um, and. It's amazing what you can, when you start breaking it down, it's amazing how fast and quickly you can learn. And once you know what to look for in the ocean, then yeah, you're gonna learn so much faster. That's, I think it's an advantage, like the experience in that, that adult brain, you can learn a lot faster than a kid learns in some ways.

Well,

Rob Case: when there's, yeah. When there's, explicit instruction, and that's what you and I are guiding more adults with, and that's what the really, the book is. It's funny when I have, uh, parents bring their kind of up and coming competitive kids and they're, you know, they're like 10, 11, and they're like, I really want you to teach my kid about paddling technique.

I was like, okay. They'll go through the whole level one course in like 20 minutes. Like they're, they get it like that. Their neuroplasticity is so fluid and I don't need to tell them anything explicit. I just say, all right, get in the pool. Okay. What do you feel? Okay. Straighten that arm out. Okay, do it again.

Whereas with an adult, I have to explain, okay, this is, these are the drag forces you're experiencing. This is why we need to do this. And as an adult, we process so many more things, but we learn explicitly versus the implicit learning of a child who can go out and just do trial and error. And that's, even yesterday, I was in the ocean with a client and I said, I said, listen, there's, there's a certain point where you need to be less hesitant to go because you think you're going to fall, and then you need to be less precious with the waves you surf because.

You're not going to progress. You need to be a kid sometimes and just try stuff. Right. And as adults, like kids don't care. Like they really don't care if they fall. They're like, Hey, check this out. Boom. And be precious with your strokes and be a little bit more wasteful with the waves that you surf and you'll progress a lot faster that way.

And he was like, oh yeah, I think I could be a kid. I was like, I know you can

Michael Frampton: be a kid. Mm. That's a good way to put it. Be more, more precious with your strokes. Less precious with your waves.

Rob Case: Exactly. It's hard though. It's really hard when you're waiting. Five minutes, 10 minutes. Yeah. A good one. Oh man. Yeah, it's really hard.

Even I have trouble with that one.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. No, but I think that to add to that, it's we can be really, as adults, we kids sort of. Yeah. 'cause they don't care. They're not as obsessed with watching the ocean. But I think as adults we can really, like I remember when I first started surfing in the east coast of Australia, and I remember surfing with Nathan Hedge, and you're in a lineup with a lot of good surfers sitting there waiting for a set.

And then all of a sudden Nathan Hedge starts paddling like a madman. And he's like, oh, why is he paddling? And then five seconds later, everyone else sees the set coming. He saw it before everyone else. Why? Yeah, because he was just sitting, he wasn't just sitting there waiting for this set. He's just scanning that little sliver of ocean looking for the tiniest little bit of detail.

So he sees the set coming before anyone else. 'cause he's, 'cause he wants it more than any anyone else.

Rob Case: I think they also have, uh, an innate sense of timing and we haven't seen a set in a while. I was talking about this, um, a few days ago where someone was like, if we haven't seen a set in a while, what do you, do you think one might be coming?

You know, like, we've been surfing, kind of these inside ones we've been drifting. Do you think we should take a few extra strokes out just in case? And he's like, oh yeah, that's a point. And like almost on cue I it, look, I look like a magician, a set up here. But it was, you know, like you'll sense it too. But his sensitivity is probably heightened, you know, it's, it's, it's like his sensitivity on the board itself through all that experience.

Oh, for

Michael Frampton: sure. I think that's definitely part of, I, I also think that his. Eye for detail is far more nuanced than he even realizes. Yeah. Do you know like maybe a, a shimmer on some rock out? Because when you're looking at the ocean, it's this tiny little sliver. Yeah. Yeah. Like when we see those pho photographs taken from up high, you know, we can see the lines stacked out the back and the shapes of each set and stuff.

And, but we have such a different perspective when we're sitting in the water. But I think great surfers can look at that sliver in a far greater detail without them even realizing. Yeah. And yeah, sometimes it's instinct. They're like, oh, has it been a set in a while? The rhythm of the sets has been like this.

I'm gonna paddle out. Or sometimes they see a little, whether it's a glimmer or a rebound of a headland in the distance or, or something, they just, their eye picks that up without them realizing it. They, they just feel like they should paddle out the back. Yeah. So what I always tell people as an adult surfer, you have the ability to, to, to focus on that sliver like a madman.

Yes. And that, that's one advantage you have over over kids is like, you have the ability to to really, to focus better. And so when you're surfing, don't just sit out the back waiting for a wave. Focus on the horizon, focus on that sliver of water. A BSI say a b, s always be surfing, always be predicting when the wave is coming, where the next set's gonna break.

And it goes back to what you said. You know, if you've, if you've looked at the different, all the, the seven different swells that are in the water on the surf line, on the detailed part of the surf line report and you know there's a secondary and a tertiary swell and you kind of know what to look for if you know what the tide's doing and the way that the rips move at your local beach because you know what to be looking for.

You know, the way that a southerly swell refracts off the headland when it's 15 seconds, you know, to be looking for the double ups or the more. You look for, the more you understand that those details exist, the more you can look for them. And I think that helps us to focus more while we're waiting.

Rob Case: Yeah.

Michael Frampton: Which again comes back to efficiency. 'cause then you know when to paddle.

Rob Case: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a great point. I, I'm just thinking of these little kids that, you're right, they don't have this focus. They're, they're honestly like within maybe a five meter radius, they're like wave, wave, wave, wave. Right. And it's like a dog looking for a squirrel.

It's like squirrel, right? And then they just go and they surf it and they just go and surf it and that's how they learn Super quick. It's spurred a thought in me to that maybe the audience might be helpful, is something you said earlier is, is identifying, okay, where are you at on your journey and finding waves that will help you to that next step, right?

So if you're looking for waves that are airwaves. You're really just trying to work on your bottom turn. You're looking for the wrong type of wave, the wrong surf spot, right? And so you're not gonna get the reps that you need for the bottom turn or for the top turn, or for just getting to your feet or just paddling around, um, getting a sense for the wave picking you up.

So I, I talk a lot to my clients and I'm sure you talk the same, is like, there are certain conditions that you're, this is your wheelhouse. You're looking for a wave that might give you one or two turns. Do you need to go to all the beautiful point breaks? And battle the crowd and sit and wait for 30 minutes before you even get a chance at maybe getting a sliver of one.

No, you can go find something that has maybe one or two turn sections or maybe just a closeout if that's what you're working on, is just getting your feet right and you're going to get way more quality reps in a shorter amount of time than having to deal with it. Now, I always get pushback like, oh, but those waves are so much better.

It's like, yeah, I get that, but are you gonna go for, you know, 50 to a hundred meters and not do anything? Like again? Now you're back to not progressing. And so I think for me personally, there are sessions when I'm working on progression and I'm really focused and then there are sessions where I just wanna surf and have fun and just glide.

I think we talked about this last time 'cause you talked about your 12 foot glider and, uh. There. I think it depends on how you're feeling, but in terms of progression, you really do wanna align where you're at and where, what's that next step? And that's where you need a coach to tell you, tell you, yeah.

That wave that you keep trying to sit at and you're, you know, in Santa Cruz and there's a hundred people on the point and you're waiting your turn for the, the wave of the day, you're missing lots of opportunities, right? Yeah. To get better. And so your, your timeline is gonna be much longer.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, kids that they'll be sitting on the inside or they'll be sitting at a beach break, just a.

Goofing around having fun. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Taking everything,

Rob Case: yes. Like literally every, we were, I was doing a level two in, uh, in Santa Cruz, and it was in the afternoon, and one of the locals, it was only like five of us at the, at the, the main point. And I was, I was like, this is great. We got, we got our pick the litter, we got sets, we got inside, we got middle, we got tons of reps.

And then this one local was like, uhoh school just got out. And I was like, I saw like one or two kids battle out. And I was like, oh, that's not bad. It's not bad. He was like, oh, the surf team's coming. And I was like, all of a sudden, like 30 kids, and I, I'm not even kidding. It was like 30 kids and they took every bump that came through and they dropped in on each other and they were having the best time.

And there were a few rippers in the group, but the rest of 'em were just kind of just. Just cruising along and having fun. And you're right, they're just like,

Michael Frampton: they're just like,

Rob Case: swirl, swirl, swirl, swirl.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. I think for adults there's, there's a happy medium. 'cause obviously they've got boundless energy and super quick recovery times.

They can wake up the next day and do it all again and

Rob Case: do it all again. Yeah.

Michael Frampton: So as adults, we wanna look for that efficiency in, and that's to an advantage in some ways. Uh, 'cause we, we have that awareness. , But I mean, it's a great point. If you, if you really, I think the, the popup or the takeoff is surfing's hardest and most important maneuver.

Rob Case: Yeah.

Michael Frampton: I love that. You can, that maneuver,

Rob Case: I tell people all the time, I tell people all the time, it's a maneuver. Yeah. Like, you see very beautiful takeoffs and you see really ugly takeoffs. You see really fast takeoffs. You see really slow takeoffs. And there's, they all have, uh, a nuance to them. And the ones that you see are what we would consider maybe the best quote unquote, um.

They're the ones that, um, they have function as well as kind of an art to it, right? Oh, yeah. So that's, I agree with

Michael Frampton: you completely, that that one's the most overlooked. It's also the most physically demanding and dynamic maneuver in surfing. I mean, you watch, I mean, someone like Aki exaggerates how little you need to move your body.

Watch AKI surf. Don't watch him surf. Watch his, what his body does, he's compressing and extending very little. He moves his arms a little bit, but has just his lean and his subtle twist. The timing doesn't, he barely moves. Yeah. So going from lying down on That's a really good point. Yeah. From lying, lying down on your stomach to getting to your feet.

That is the hardest part of surfing. Yeah. The rest of it's all about timing and, and subtlety and that, that's stuff you can, gosh, you can work on a skateboard or you can work on front of a mirror really, if you're, if you're obsessed enough. And that's something I, I recommend doing, but what's the point if you can't read the ocean and paddle efficiently and get the rep Yeah.

Get the potential opportunity to do that. Yeah. And, and, and pop up properly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's something you learn that isn't in your YouTube videos whilst you're, um, going through the process of writing your book?

Rob Case: , What's not in the, the YouTube or the online course?

Michael Frampton: Yeah.

Rob Case: Or just in general. , Yeah.

Michael Frampton: I'm just wondering if there's any, the book writing details that came out. Book,

Rob Case: I think the main thing was making sure, well there was a new technique that I started teaching, , about near the end of completion of the book that I finally was able to kind of just explicitly kind of right out.

So there, there were some things that were coming out that were new. And I don't know if you've seen the bibliography. There's a lot of documents back there from what I pull all the information from. And so, , I, I think it was funny that the, the biggest thing I learned was that it's okay to have a version two.

Because at this point I was just delaying and procrastinating the release of the book. Like I had, I had written the manuscript years ago, and then I just kept saying to myself, oh, well, I need it to be perfect. I need it to be perfect. Uh, I need to make sure that, you know, all the information's spot on, that the, it's all, you know, we have the references in the back and that I include this in that.

And, um, I, I, I hired a professional editor. We went through it two or three times. I've hired a professional illustrator, , you know, and I just kind of kept procrastinating the full release. And I was like, oh, well now I have to format it. Oh, what font should I use? How, how big is the spacing? And I obsessed, I obsessed over this.

And, and really all it was was procrastination. And I realized that. You know, I, I got, you know, 3, 4, 5 different author versions of it and I re-read through it and I was like, okay, it's perfect time to release. And I release it and I get the first batch and I find a typo. And I'm like, damn it, are you kidding me?

Like, and it, and, and the funny thing, the lesson I learned from that was, you know, it's, , I, I could have, I could, you know, fix it and then reprint. , I can definitely do that, but I'm gonna keep it because I like the, I like the idea that it's I'm human and that it has mistakes and it's okay. It doesn't change the meaning of the paragraph that it's in.

It doesn't change the meaning of the book or the, the main content. It's not even in the main content. It's near the fringes of it. Um, but all that procrastination, I did it. It was, and all this worrying really wasn't for anything. You know, it was just a waste of my, um, my own energy. I wasn't being efficient with my energy.

But, , yeah, that was probably the biggest thing I learned throughout the whole process is you hear that it's really, really hard. The actual physical and mental writing of the book is not hard. The formatting's not hard. I, the fact that I've never done it before that what was hard about it? It was, it was, you know, self-conscious.

It was, . It was scary. It was vulnerable. Now it's in print. Right. For some reason with the videos, even though, yeah, they're, they're recorded and they're published. I could take them down, right? Mm. Now it's in print. Now it's now it's like, feels much more permanent. So I felt this, this need and this responsibility to make it perfect and then at the end, it's not perfect.

And I, I find beauty in that and I find like, that's awesome. You know, and, and hopefully, like, hopefully this sparks kind of a fire under some people's bottoms to go and do more research in this area. You know, we, we have some research in paddling. There's some research in technique, the university I've been talking to, and in Australia and in, uh, here in California and in Europe there's some, but there needs to be more, there needs to be a lot more and.

If you look at kind of the journey that swim research went through in the sixties, it kind of started out with a coach. A coach that had, was kind of scientifically minded, was like, I'm gonna challenge these, these assumptions we all have, and put a little bit of structure to him and really work on these experiments.

Now, he wasn't academically trained to do experiments. Um, he became later on academically trained, but that sparked it all. And then they did a reprint in the nineties. His son actually did a reprint of everything with the new technology and the new research that's been done. But that was the thing that kind of pioneered it was in the sixties and it's still still going on today with new technology, new research.

So if you look at, you know, from the sixties all the way to today, that's several decades. You know, we're, we're, we're that swimming, which is heavily covered. Still hasn't really finished, they haven't made it to the finish line of what is 100% true. In fact, fact, they're still tinkering. Hmm. And we're at the beginning of surfing, you know, and it's not just paddling technique, but it's all surfing.

Like there should, if, if this can spark a fire under the academics, but to, to, to start doing more and more testing of this. I want them to challenge these things. I want them to academically with good rigor, do these things. And if I'm wrong, I'm happy to be wrong. , I'll do a version two, I'll add their study to the back.

Right. That's what this hopefully will spark. I'm crossing my fingers that it does something to get somebody to do something about it. . Because there needs to be more, to your point, like other sports, they have decades. They're decades ahead of us.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. You see that new company with a, they've got a tail pad that's pressure sensitive and has a gyroscope in it.

Rob Case: No.

Michael Frampton: So they can That's awesome. Yeah. So you can get, um, you know, realtime feedback of what pressure is on the, which part of the tail pad and the board angle. Fantastic. And the board and the board speed. That's fantastic. Yeah. That is it. That's what we need. That's what we want. Yeah. Yeah. I see that. I think they've released it yet.

I think it's called Tracks with an X. It popped up on my, on my Instagram. That's great. Just to see what they do with that.

Rob Case: Absolutely. And who's gonna get involved in that? Like, you know, I, I, I've been working with a few people that are doing some new technology with video, , AI stuff where they can take, you know, really good surfer, just a video of them and overlay your movement on top of them and really break down all the lidio little nuances like you've talked about the difference between you versus me on the same place on that wave.

Um, for example, I think that would. Again, it's more information and then we have to go apply it,

Michael Frampton: right? . Oh, is there an ai ver like coach's eye is what? There's this software that's been used for that a lot, but if there's an AI that's, is it AI that's sort of doing it faster? So it's a,

Rob Case: it's a camera that actually, , you know, all like Flow State.

You have Flow State, at Urban Surf or you know, where, where it, it identifies a surfer just based off of their surfboard or their Yeah. What they're wearing. And then it sorts their videos. . So it does that, but then it tracks every movement of the surfer and it has stock images of the, of a pro surfer on the same wave.

Oh, cool. And then it tracks it about the same location. Oh. And then you can see kind of an overlay of one over the other. And you can be like, yeah, see you're way out here on the shoulder, and they're back here in the pocket. Right. And they're turning their shoulder at this point, and you've. Already turned your shoulder or you haven't turned it yet.

So stuff like that. And I think that's, that's coming online. I think there's more and more use cases for that. , But yeah, the track pad, I think, I think that's, the camera stuff I think is very flashy. It's very useful in real time, but there still needs to be academic rigor behind it. Right. To to, to really solidify that.

Okay. Yeah. That's, that's what everybody should do because there are, there are unique athletes out there that make a certain movement and it is not actually proven scientific. Like Michael Phelps is a very asymmetric swimmer. He breathes, , his strokes are not even, he does one longer stroke than the other.

He kind of always does that longer stroke and then a quick stroke, and then longer stroke and quick stroke, and yet he gets some pretty darn good results. Right? Mm. So how can you say that he, he is the absolute best swimmer in the world with the best technique. He's the best swimmer in the world. Yes. But what is the, the technique that can be replicated towards the, the recreational swimmer or the lower age swimmer?

Michael Frampton: Well, it's something the human body's not symmetrical as much as we'd like to think it is. It's not, you know, your heart sits further to the left. Your liver's on the right hand side, you have one dom neurologically. You have one hand that's more dominant and stronger as well. And that those could be different sides.

You'll have bone length discrepancies. So as much as we strive for symmetry, uh, it's, it's nice to think about and, and aim for, but it's also not possible. So it is, it's dependent. Right. And like you said, with surfing, gosh. This person's height difference and the type of board they're riding is gonna change their, their surfing technique.

And of course that their, their technique might be part of their style and that's what's different about them. I think there are certain, there certainly are certain fundamentals, you know, where you place your board that is the most powerful part of the wave and that sort of stuff. Um, yeah, but no, there, there is a lot of room for, for improvement.

I think the biggest thing is, is like, it, sometimes it doesn't matter when, at least my experience personally and with other clients, it doesn't matter when and where you're putting your bottom turn. If you are, if you don't even realize how scared you are or how stro, I, I call it trooping. I dunno if you've ever experienced a wave where it was filmed maybe in a, in, it's a, it's a five second wave, let's say, but it felt like it was half a second.

And you have the, your memory of it is strobe. Like it was just flashes. Then sometimes when you are surfing and you're in the zone, a five second waves feels like 10 seconds and you knew what your hand was doing. Yeah. Time slowed down. That's to get to that point, I think that, that you'd need a lot of confidence in the water.

Rob Case: Yeah.

Michael Frampton: And comfort feel, and comfort in the water. Whereas I think even, even subconsciously, we don't realize how scared we are in, in, in the ocean a lot of the times.

Rob Case: Yeah. No, I, I, I see that with paddling. Again, I, I kind of stop once they're standing, but you'll, uh, every once in a while I'll see a client that you can definitely tell I have to pull 'em back to the beach and just have a little, you know, real time with them and say, you know, what's going, what's really going on?

Because like when I see what's beautiful about when I get to work with someone in person is I get to see them in the pool and I'll, I'll have them go through the pool and I can see. The body movements, the body language that is relaxed, that is comfortable, it's controlled. We put 'em out on the lagoon, a little less controlled.

Maybe they tense up, maybe they don't. When this thinking in the ocean, that's a lot of people are, why are you doing the ocean stuff? It's like, well, I want to see how the movement changes once you're in that environment. And it inevitably always changes. And it might not be a comfort thing. It could be they're just distracted with, again, squirrels, they're like, you know, squirreling not thinking about anything else.

But yeah, every once in a while I have to pull a a client aside and be like, what's really going on? Like, where's the fear coming from? And their movement vastly changes just from paddling. Oh yeah. Let alone if they're on a wave. Yeah. Again, I miss your

Michael Frampton: job. Shame and anxiety comes into play a lot with surfing because it's always done in a public place.

Yeah. You can't practice by yourself. And if you can, you prob you probably shouldn't be out there by yourself. It's dangerous. But you know, when you are surfing, you're, there's someone watching. And I think that's the beauty with kids is they don't care. They're just nah, having fun. So their bodies are relaxed and they're, and they're in the, in in the moment.

And I think that's one of the hardest parts in surfing to improve is being focused and present in the moment so that you can change your technique and you this, this fear and the shame and there's all sorts of factors that contribute to that. But , back to it's why you

Rob Case: say that, you know, I'll bring something up real quick, Mike, sorry to interrupt you, but, um.

There's, there's, there's a lot of people watching you in the lineup and there's a lot of judgment. And I think that's where like the shame and the anxiety comes from. But one of the things that I've realized is that they're looking at you just because of, , personal selfish reasons. They just want to see if they can get more waves for themselves.

They don't really care about you and what you're doing. They just want more waves. Exactly. And so I started looking at it that way and I'm like, oh, well they don't really care if I have really good style or bad sell. They're just judging me if they can get waves exactly from me. And that's it. That's it.

That's, that's where it ends. That's where their thought ends. Like they're not breaking down every little thing. And you know, when people get anxiety about like, oh, you know, they saw me botch that turns like they didn't really care. Right. They didn't care about any of that. They just wanted to know if they were gonna drop in on you or not.

That's it.

Michael Frampton: Yep. That is it. Like we've all got a friend who you've been surfing with and you've seen them not surf to their potential. Did it matter? Did you not be friends with them? Did you care? Right. Did you No, it's, no one actually cares. It is all in our head. It's like other, we put our, our judgment of what other pe of the way other people are judging us.

Like it's all in our head. Even what? Yes. And you, you're just imagining what they're judging. Yeah. But in reality, yeah. They're just wondering. They're just hoping you fall off so they can take the wave. They don't care about how you're surfing or anything like that.

Rob Case: Absolutely.

Michael Frampton: And the irony is, you know, it, it is a, there is a competence hierarchy in surfing, so the best surfers tend to get the best waves.

Or not even, it's not even that is it. It's the best. It's the best at catching and reading the ocean that get the most waves because

Rob Case: you, well, and then they, they, they get reinforced when they surf the wave. Well, everyone's like, oh, well th that was really cool. I wanna watch them again, or I'm gonna let them have the next one because kind of surf is, I don't wanna waste it.

Right. I've seen that as well.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. But that it, you, if you define surfing it well, not, it doesn't have to be ripping or shredding. It could be you're just doing some nice smooth Yeah, nice smooth turns in rhythm with the ocean. That's still, that's still good surfing. And that's a lot of what I've been talking about recently is like, well, yeah, in order to enjoy surfing properly, you need to define what good surfing means to you.

Maybe it is just. Standing there and doing some little turns in rhythm with the wave and having a relaxed body. 'cause that's still really good surfing. You don't have to go there out there on a shortboard and try and pretend that you are, uh, in a competition that's such a small, small and that tends to frustrate a lot of people.

Whereas, you know, I prefer to watch Torin Martin or Devin Howard Surf Surf nowadays. Mm-hmm. Seems more relatable,

Rob Case: kind of. Yeah. You said something earlier about how like the pros are constantly trying to improve. , The pros are just as insecure as we are, but just on a different level. Yeah. , It's, it's crazy how the more I get to work with them.

The more you realize they're just like us in terms of that insecurity, and you're sitting there going, man, you shred. You are amazing surfer. Don't, why are you stressing this much? Oh, that guy's so much better than me. Why do you think he's better than me? Oh, because he is a better paddler than me. I was like, hold on a second.

You're associating his paddling with his surfing now. Like, yeah. You know, those are not, they're mutually exclusive. He could be a really good paddler and not a good surfer, not as good as you, but at that elite level, at that 1% level, that that could make all the difference. And so that's. It's interesting you brought that up.

And I just wanted the audience to know that these pros and these good surfers, they're just as insecure as we are, just on a different level.

Michael Frampton: And they also Yeah, that's a good point. But it's more nuanced because their insecurity and, and all that stuff, it remains outside of them surfing a wave. 'cause when they're on the wave, they're present and they're surfing the wave.

Mm-hmm. Now they might go back and watch the footage and go, oh fuck, I, I need to do, I need to just like

Rob Case: us. Yeah. And,

Michael Frampton: and they'll put the time in outside of surfing and they'll trust that the, the work they've put in outside of surfing a wave will translate. But when they're on the wave, they're present.

And when they're surfing, they've, they've forgot about that wave. It doesn't matter. I'll, I'll work on it outside of, or I like the, the analogy of the musician, when you're playing in a band with your friends, you're listening to the drummer and you're trying to. Be better at the song. As soon as you start thinking, oh, am I in time?

Am I doing this right? Well, there's nothing you can do about it, right? You, you're playing the song together. You might as well focus and be the best you can in that moment. And if you think you need to be better, well you go, go home and practice. Go away and practice. So I think good professionals in any, whether it's music or surfing or any sport, they have the ability to separate those things.

They don't let that anxiety and that self doubt creep into their actual performances and their experience. They work on that outside of that. Whereas I, I think that's a big part of what separates the, the good from the great is sometimes we let that stuff creep into our actual surfing experiences and we are worried about what people look or how we are looking when we're actually surfing the wave.

And then the opposite of a flow state happens, time seems to speed up and we get that trooping effect.

Rob Case: Is the ultimate kind of present state when you do it in that flow state. And I, I, I always assimilate like Steph Curry, 'cause he's so big here, he's not thinking about his shot when he throws it up and he immediately forgets about a miss or a make, and the very next moment he's off to the next thing.

And then like I, we've been watching a lot of NBA the last few years and when you see a player really get into a kind of a funk, they have, they're no longer in that moment anymore. They're thinking about those little things in the moment and they're not going back and just relying, like you said, relying upon the training outside of it.

But the difference is, and I use this analogy a lot with people, Steph Curry can, can, after a game, if he had a bad free throw game, he can go and shoot free throws over and over and over again and really practice, practice, practice. Tough for us to, to shoot free throws on a surfboard, uh, metaphorically speaking.

Yeah. The same section over and over again. And that's where wave pools, I think help a bit. There's at least some sense of repetition in the waves, so you can do the same thing over and over again. Yeah. Um,

Michael Frampton: well, you also, you have to be a bit, and you used have, you also have to be a bit more creative. You know, there's plenty of dry land training, like, I mean, that's what on my website, there's a free PDF where we break down with here's what a popup is.

Here's how you practice it in slow motion forwards and backwards. I've got videos and all that stuff so you can get creative and practice your, your popup technique, the mobility of it, the strength of it, the control of it, where your eyes are looking the whole way through it, that sort of stuff. You can practice that on dry land.

You can get a skateboard and practice some of the surfing techniques. You can join Brad Acks wave key thing. You can read Rob Case's book on surfing paddling and watch all of his surfing videos in order to understand what is efficient paddling, what is, what are, what are some hydrodynamic principles and all of that stuff.

I think so we can, there's so much out there that we can look at outside of our surfing time. Um, yeah, and that comes back to something that I, when I first started this podcast, I was obsessed with surfing and that those years. That's what I was doing. I was watching videos, I was learning about stuff. I was skateboarding when, when the waves were flat.

I was, so yeah, we, we don't get to practice, um, on a wave that much. Or like you said, I mean wave pools are changing that somewhat. But that's expensive. But there's so much else we can do. Yeah. We've been able to, we have to get

Rob Case: creative, like you said, we had to get creative over the years. 'cause that's also the uniqueness of surfing is that every wave is unique.

It is a one, you know, that one moment in time will not happen again on that wave, in that exact place. Even in a wave pool, all the waves are nuanced, a little bit different. Right. So it's so unique. And that's what we love about surfing as well. Exactly. That's why it's the greatest teacher of being in the present.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. I think because it's so unique and rare, that's what makes it special. But I think because of that reason, all that work that you put in. To finally get there makes all, all the difference. And then you feel confident to book a trip to the tropics with, you know, 18 second period swells. 'cause you're confident paddler and you've done your underwater training and you, you're strong and you're fit.

And, uh, you know, this, I it's so exciting. Surfing is, uh, you can, I mean, even Kelly Slater himself still wants to get better, right? This,

Rob Case: yeah. Yeah. Awesome.

Michael Frampton: They still wanna improve. There is, there is no, there's no ceiling. Yeah. Surfing. There's

Rob Case: perfect, there's no perfect in surfing.

Michael Frampton: No, not at all., Rob, what's the, what's your website?

Rob Case: Surfing paddling.com. Pretty simple. Just remember the ING after surfing. Yep. Surfing petman.com. Okay, great. And that's where, that's where people can get, you know, access to the book. With the book. I have, , there's a link on there if you sign up through that link, you get three free videos that help illustrate some of the principles that I outlined in the book.

, And then later on I send you a little discount code for the online course that helps further, you know, connect the words to visuals, , if you can't come work with me here or wherever I end up in the world. But yeah, lots of, lots of resources at the website. That's the main place to get it.

Michael Frampton: Yep. Okay.

Awesome. , Listeners, if you want to to learn, , the audio version of some of the details of paddling technique, you can go back to episode 12 of this podcast, our original episode, and you can go to Rob's YouTube channel as well. And of course surfing paddling.com for everything else. There will be links to that in the show notes.

And, , Rob, thank you so much for your time. It was great talking with you, Mike. Appreciate it. Alright. Be well buddy.

The Surf Mastery Podcast:

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

157 episodes

#Surf #Mastery #Tips #Michael Frampton #Sports #Podcasting Education #SURF MASTERY