When I walked out of "John Proctor is the Villain" on Broadway, I knew I wanted to have a conversation about the guys in the show and I got to have it with two of them, Gabriel Ebert and Hagen Oliveras. These guys don't play the heroes in this show, they play the guys we recognize, the ones who make us uncomfortable because we've either known them or we've been them.

Gabriel portrays Mr. Smith, a beloved teacher whose true nature becomes devastatingly clear. Hagen plays Lee, a troubled young man whose attempts to connect consistently harm the people around him. What struck me wasn't just their performances, but how these roles have forced them to confront difficult truths about masculinity that most of us would rather avoid.

In this conversation, we explore:

• How playing morally complex characters has changed their understanding of male behavior
• The moments from their own lives they've had to reckon with through these roles
• Why defensiveness and withdrawal often make men's struggles worse, not better
• The difference between struggling and how you choose to struggle
• Why vulnerability, not protection of ego, serves everyone better

Gabriel and Hagen have spent months inhabiting these characters, and their insights into the psychology of men who cause harm are both unsettling and necessary. These are the conversations that matter, the ones that might actually help us become better men. Thanks for listening and share with a friend or someone you think might resonate this one.

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