In this episode, Brenda explores the often-overlooked mismatch between what clients say and what they do. It’s a common experience in therapy: insight is there, but behavior doesn’t shift. This conversation dives into why that happens—and how unconscious motivation plays a powerful role in human behavior.

Grounding the conversation with contributions from the work of Fonagy, Freud, Schore, Panksepp, McWilliams, and more she explains how behavior is often driven by internal states we don’t even realize are there. It's not just about what we think—it’s about how we feel, and more importantly, how our brains process primary emotional experiences. Westen’s idea that affect regulation is the primary driver of motivation helps reframe what might look like resistance or avoidance in the therapy room.

From there, Brenda introduces the science of affective neuroscience, highlighting Jaak Panksepp’s research on the brain’s primary emotional systems. These systems—like Seeking, Fear, Panic/Grief, and Rage—are primal, fast, and often unconscious. She takes time to walk through each one, showing how they shape behavior in ways clients can’t always name. Whether it's a drive to connect, avoid danger, or lash out under pressure, these emotional systems often explain the “why” behind the stuckness.

Brenda also brings this into clinical practice. Using Nancy McWilliams’s framework, she explains how anxiety can come from different systems—and how knowing the source changes the ways to intervene.

Throughout the episode, Brenda encourages therapists to listen differently—to tune into the emotional system underneath the story. When we shift our focus to what’s happening in the body and deeper brain systems, we can meet clients in the places that words alone often can’t reach.

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References:

Fonagy, P., & Target, M. (2003). Psychoanalytic theories:Perspectives from developmental psychopathology.

McWilliams, N. (2014, September 2). 2012 Master Lecture - Beyond Traits: Personality

Differences As Intersubjective Themes [Video]. Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_kUE2GWeYE

Panksepp, J. (2009). Brain emotional systems and qualities of mental life: From animal

models of affect to implications for psychotherapeutics. In D. Fosha, D. J., Siegel,

& M. F. Solomon (Eds.), The healing power of emotion: Affective neuroscience,

development & clinical practice (pp. 1-26). New York, NY: Norton.

Panksepp, J. & Biven, L. (2012). The Archaeology of mind: Neuroevolutionary origins of human emotions. New York, NY: Norton.

Schore, A.N. (2003). Affect dysregulation and disorders of the self. (and) Affect regulation and repair of the self. New York, NY: Norton.