Think Shame Is the Cause of Cheating? Think Again.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery

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9d ago 36:58

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Does shame cause cheating—or is it just an excuse? Discover the real cause of cheating and why shame isn’t the reason your husband keeps lying.

If you’re experiencing the pain and devastation of finding out your husband has betrayed you online, attend one of our daily Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions TODAY.

If you’ve been told that shame is Cause of Cheating, It’s a Lie

Here’s the truth: Cheating is not a mysterious emotional accident. It’s a pattern. A predictable one. And if you’ve been caught in the confusion, these 7 myths will help you see it clearly.

1. “He cheats because he feels ashamed.”

Nope. Shame doesn’t cause cheating—it follows it.

He cheats, he lies, he gets caught… and then he feels bad. That’s not a root cause. That’s a consequence. Saying shame caused the betrayal is like blaming the fire alarm for the fire.

2. “He has an attachment disorder.”

This one gets used to flip the script: He just doesn’t feel emotionally connected.

But guess what? You can’t attach to someone who’s lying to you. Infidelity and porn use destroy connection. If he feels detached, that’s not a disorder—it’s the direct result of his own behavior.

3. “You shouldn’t shame him—it’ll make it worse.”

Translation: Don’t speak up. Don’t react. Don’t be upset.

This tactic silences victims. The moment you say, “This hurts me,” he yells, “Stop shaming me!” It’s just another way to dodge accountability and keep you in line.

4. “Religious people cheat more because of guilt.”

There’s a myth that religion causes more cheating because it adds shame. But research shows the opposite—religious people use porn less and cheat less. Guilt doesn’t drive betrayal. Choice does.

5. “You should support his recovery, So He’s not Ashamed”

You are not his recovery plan.

You’re allowed to be angry, to say, “No, I’m not safe here.” Supporting his so-called recovery doesn’t mean tolerating lies, manipulation, or repeat offenses.

6. “If you were more affectionate, he won’t Feel Shame ANd Then He wouldn’t cheat.”

Cheating is not a response to your behavior. It’s a habit he chose long before you found out.

You could be the most attentive, sexually available, emotionally present partner on the planet—and he’d still cheat if he wanted to. It’s not about you.

7. “If you Communicate His Shame Will Resolve.”

No, it’s not.

It’s a deception problem. A control problem. A lack-of-integrity problem.

Cheating isn’t caused by miscommunication—it’s caused by deliberate choices to lie, betray, and blame.

So What Is the Cause of Cheating?

It’s simple: he wants to do it. And he chooses to do it.

If he’s cheating, he’s not “broken.” He’s not “misunderstood.” He’s not “ashamed.” He’s doing what he wants—and using shame, attachment theories, and therapy language to get away with it.

If your husband continues to lie, gaslight, manipulate, and turn the tables on you about his behavior, understand that this is emotional and psychological abuse. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this free emotional abuse quiz.

Transcript: Does Shame Cause Cheating?

Anne: I recently saw a video floating around social media. It had an example of how to, “Not shame the addict.” This video put the addict in the position of victim. Where he felt more or less put upon by his wife or girlfriend. When she reacted to him, telling her he’d been lying to her and abusing her. When their boyfriend or husband says she’s the problem. This is ridiculous. Any victim of abuse can respond to her abuser in any way that she chooses. Does shame cause infidelity? No, it doesn’t.

If he changed, if he was “an addict in recovery.” He would understand that she’s the victim and he’s the perpetrator, and that she owes him nothing. I have Gary Wilson on the podcast today to talk about the facts. Shame does not cause addiction, that he is not a victim. In fact, the victims are the victims. If you are a victim of lies, infidelity, or abuse, you need to worry about your own safety, not whether you’re hurting your abuser’s feelings.

Gary and I will also talk about how addicts use the theory that they have an “attachment disorder” and expect you to attach with them so that they don’t look at this stuff online. That is not true. You are unable to attach to someone actively using it. And so if they’re trying to blame you for not attaching or saying, I didn’t feel attached, and so I used pornography. That is a way to manipulate you.

This podcast with Gary is super important, and I hope everyone will listen to every word of it. We had some sound problems. So say a little prayer that it won’t bother you too much.

Shame & Addiction: The Facts

Anne: And say, even though Gary’s microphone wasn’t working well and the connection was bad. Bless that I can hear this and process what he’s saying, that it can help me in my recovery.

He taught anatomy and physiology for years and has long been interested in the neurochemistry of addiction, mating, and bonding. The Society for the Advancement of Health presented Wilson with its Media Award for Outstanding Media Contributions and Public Education on Addiction.

Welcome, Gary.

Gary: Hey, it’s great to be here.

Anne: Okay, Gary, why is this shame causes infidelity and addiction theory so popular right now?

Gary: Addiction and shame are often intertwined, and that’s a separate issue. So shame might be associated with it’s use, or shame associated with just addiction. I can’t stop drinking alcohol, it’s ruining my life, and I’m in a shame and then binge cycle because I can’t stop. I think when we use the word shame we need to be very specific about what we’re talking about.

Anne: Is it true? Does shame cause infidelity or addiction?

Gary: No, shame doesn’t cause addiction. Let’s be real clear about this.

Neurological Studies On Addiction

Gary: Addiction has been studied for 60 years, and there are thousands and thousands of neurological studies. It started with animals, where they can induce addiction. Animals do not have shame. Then cut the brains open, they look at the brains, they see the brain changes. So thousands and thousands of rats, mice, even monkeys. And then recently starting to look at food addiction in animals.

And in the last 20 years, we’ve looked at the brain changes in humans that occur with both drug addiction and behavioral addiction, such as addiction, gambling addiction, food addiction, and internet addiction. These brain changes are pretty consistent. And the brain changes are then mirrored in the behavior. So the behaviors would be something like the compulsion to use, which has a lot of cravings, the inability to control use, you’re just out of control.

And you’re binging, continued use despite severe negative consequences. These are the behaviors that we associate with an addiction. People and animals mirror the brain changes that occur. So no, does shame cause infidelity or addiction related brain changes? Let’s just get that out of the way.

Anne: How is shame different than addiction?

Gary: Well, it’s just an emotion. You can have depression, you can have anxiety, you can feel bad. It’s very common for someone who has an addiction to have shame. In other words, they’re hurting themselves. They’re hurting those around them. They have shame because they won’t control themselves. That’s the shame associated with addiction. And that is separate. It should be kept separate.

No, Shame Does Not Cause Infidelity

Gary: I monitor these very large forums where we have primarily young men who are quitting online exploitation. One of them is called NoFap, and it has over 300, 000 members. They did a survey. They found that 62 percent of their members who are trying to quit are agnostic or atheist. So, no, does shame cause infidelity or addiction? No, it’s not about shame.

Anne: Why this is so important to me is because I remember a specific situation. My ex’s behaviors, were escalating out of control. He was becoming more abusive, and his dad came over and they prayed together in our basement. And then his dad left, and then he came up about an hour later. I said, how did it go with your dad? And he was like, fine, then after that prayer, I looked at it for an hour and masturbated.

And I sat down on our bed and said three words. “Whoa, that’s bad.” That’s all I said. Because I realized, holy cow, if he prays with his dad. Then immediately looks at it and masturbates, for over an hour, he’s way far gone. After I said those three words, he yelled, stop shaming me. He used it to silence me.

Basically, you can’t say anything to me. You can’t be angry about my use. You need to “support my recovery.” If you don’t support my recovery, then you’re shaming me. So it seems like this shame thing has been taken to this whole different level than ever intended. By addicts to manipulate people, and it’s ticking me off.

Religious People & Addiction

Anne: Let’s talk about the myth that religious people are more likely to be pornography addicts than non religious people. Because religious people would feel more shame about infidelity.

Gary: Well, there’s a couple of reasons it’s floating around. Often what’s cited is this study that found Utah was number one in use. It’s called Red Lights, Who Buys Online Adult Entertainment. It wasn’t about its use across all inappropriate media tube sites. It was looking at state by state subscriptions to one site out of thousands of sites.

My belief is this researcher looked and looked until he found a particular website whose subscriptions were higher in Utah than any other place. So it was a biased study. And people say, well, look, religious people use more or are more addicted. Well, no they’re not. Probably 25 studies have asked groups of people whether they religious or not. They have found that religious people use it at far lower rates than secular people.

So that means that being religious is protective against it’s use and thus protective against addiction, all studies. I’m saying this, all studies that have looked at individuals who check off the box, I’m religious, I’m not religious, all of them find less use among the religious.

And what’s interesting: a study looked at some of these three or four studies that look at states. And they say, well, red states, have a higher rate of Google inappropriate media searches. The suggestion in all these studies is that religious people are lying about their use in all these many studies. They looked at it, they found out they weren’t lying.

Studies & Their Flaws

In fact, religious people were more likely to tell the truth. So these studies that just looked at how much Google searches there are for inappropriate media in Utah, really do not show good data. They’re not representative, and they should be tossed away. The study said we should stop doing these type of studies. So the bottom line is religious people use it at a far lower rate, which means their addiction is at a far lower rate.

Anne: Now, I would like to point out that Gary is not religious.

Gary: Agnostic, yeah. As were my parents and as were my grandparents.

Anne: Right, so this is not a religious person telling us these studies. This is an agnostic, so they know where you’re coming from, which is what I appreciate about you. Why do you think, at least religious, people in Utah have glommed on to this study thing, as the does “shame cause infidelity” proof positive? So everybody’s walking on eggshells to try not to shame other people.

Gary: Yeah, not only Utah, but a lot of the popular media has glommed onto it, so that means Utah has. And we think of Utah, and we think of course, LDS. I have lots of friends who are LDS. They tell me shame is associated with it.

Gary: Joshua Grubbs, a former, a former very religious person, started to do studies. And in these studies, he had a questionnaire. It was a nine question questionnaire. And it was called the Compulsive Pornography Use Index. He found, using all nine of his questions, that religious people scored higher on this. So he named his nine questions “Perceived Addiction.”

Does Shame Cause Infidelity: Joshua Grubbs’ Questionnaire Results

Gary: And then the media took it and said, wow. Religious people believe they’re addicted when they’re not. But then when you look closely at the studies, you find that three of the questions were about shame and guilt. Addiction questionnaires for gambling, alcohol, meth and cocaine do not have questions about feeling guilt or shame after using drugs or nicotine.

What it did, when they looked at it closely, and several studies have since looked at it. They found that this particular questionnaire, because it is one third guilt and shame, caused religious people to score higher. So they said, oh, religious people are more addicted. But then when you remove those three questions, and just looked at his other six questions. So the basis of the “does shame cause infidelity” theory was tested.

You found that religious people really didn’t score higher. He created a questionnaire that was bogus. I’ve critiqued his work quite a bit and had conversations. He decided to try to disprove what I was saying. So he said, okay, I’m gonna toss out my questionnaire. You say it’s too much guilt and shame. I’m just going to ask a bunch of people. And he did three separate studies. Do you believe you’re addicted to it? That’s what he asked.

Just straight up, none of these guilt and shame questions. And guess what he found out? There was no difference between religious people and non religious people believing they were addicted. And guess what he found was the best predictor of believing you’re addicted? How much you use. The more you use, the more you thought you were addicted.

Anne: Right.

The CPUI-9 Questionnaire: Does Shame Cause Infidelity?

Gary: So he basically debunked all his own studies, and he debunked all the other studies that used the same questionnaire. So all this shame being the cause of pornography addiction arises from one place, Joshua Grubb’s nine question questionnaire called the CPUI-9. And then last year he debunked his own questionnaire.

Anne: Does he admit that now? Does he say, oops?

Gary: No, he doesn’t say oops directly. He’s still using his questionnaire. And I actually attended a conference a couple of weeks ago, and he admitted there were problems. He said, well a lot of people think there’s problems with this questionnaire, but we use it anyhow. So he keeps using it. They take these steps that aren’t connected and connect them.

And then they found, wow, when you remove those three questions from the Grubb’s questionnaire that are just about shame and guilt. There’s really no connection to religiousness. So again, they keep finding, looking at this questionnaire, that you need to get rid of these three questions that have nothing to do with addiction. They only had to do something with guilt and shame. And all the headlines really fall apart.

Anne: Right.

Gary: So it’s a big lie out there. You know, you’ve seen my presentation. It’s just a big lie and it continues.

Anne: How can we help wives regain their voice after being silenced by the manipulation of a addict who says you can’t do this, or you can’t do that, because if you do, it’s shame.

Gary: That’s blaming someone else for your own behavior. And that’s just ridiculous, an alcoholic same thing, cigarette smoker, meth user, gambler.

Debunking Myths About Shame Causing Infidelity

Gary: The shame is internal. It’s an internalized thing of the addict. They have shame because they can’t control use. The addict will feel shame whether the spouse or partner points out they’re using when they said they wouldn’t. And when that person, privately without being discovered, uses without the partner knowing. Shame will occur in those situations. It’s just blaming someone else for your behavior.

Anne: What I want my listeners to know is that you can tell them how you feel. You can be honest. If they accuse you of shaming them, you can be like, uh, no, I am telling the truth. I am religious. So I would say, no, I’m standing for truth and righteousness. Non religious people might say something like, I have specific needs to feel safe in my own home, and I do not feel safe.

Women are terrified to state their needs right now. And I don’t know how to say it. Other than flat out say there is nothing you can say to him that will shame him. He is responsible for his own shame.

Gary: It’s strange, if we step back a little bit and look at the big picture. I think I’ve also heard that in the past, in “addiction recovery” models, they have suggested to the woman that she not shame the partner, that she take responsibility for her behavior. I completely disagree with that. Why is it that with “addiction” or pornography addiction that we’re so caught up in, oh, we cannot shame the partner?

Every Individual Must Take Responsibility For Their Actions

Gary: But with gambling addiction, we wouldn’t have that same response. I don’t see that. Or with alcoholism, you don’t see a lot of the, oh, it’s also the partner’s problem. Maybe you do. Maybe there’s this codependence thing, but I don’t like the codependence model.

Anne: No.

Gary: I don’t like it at all. Every individual must take responsibility for their actions. And that’s my model, and that’s the only model that works. As far as I can see, having monitored these forums where guys are trying to quit for the last 12 years. They take responsibility for their actions.

Anne: Yeah, you don’t hear people saying, my brother does crack cocaine. I didn’t want to shame him. People are like, crack cocaine is wrong. I’m gonna state it out loud. It’s not a good thing. It’s bad if you do it. There’s not this fear of like, oh, I need to walk on eggshells. Also, in my religion, with drugs or other things, there is accountability. But with online expoitation, there’s this, we don’t want to push him away from the church. We want to keep him in the church, so there’s no accountability.

Gary: You know, one thing I’d like to point out when we’re talking about shame. Internet exploitation is set up to trap largely males, though females do get trapped. It’s endless novelty, all these women. We have the supernormal versions of what we call natural rewards in our face. And my site describes how it can trap men into it.

And then the addiction brain changes, and how it’s tough when these brain changes have occurred, like your frontal cortex has changed and it’s hard for you to inhibit behaviors.

Projecting Internalized State Outward

Gary: What they also need to know is you need to stop using. These things will not go away. You need to have long periods of not using to reverse the brain changes. So I think, in summary, that if you learn about addiction in general, and how super normal versions of natural rewards like junk food or innappropriate media can grab us. Then maybe you can step back and say, okay, well, this is what’s normal. It happened to me. It’s not good. I don’t want it to happen, but I can see why it did.

Anne: Right.

And so that’s my approach. And now, of course, whether you’re LDS or an atheist, these young men are starting at age 12 or younger. So by the time they decide to marry, they’ve been using it for 10 straight years.

Anne: And I admire the addicts who view it that way.

Gary: Right.

Anne: It’s not surprising to me that this happened. Now I need to move forward and become a healthy person. They’re humble, honest, easy to get along with and peaceful people. The addicts who are not in recovery, however, are faking recovery or trying to blame other people. That’s the population that in general my audience is dealing with every day, all day long.

And so we have to set boundaries around that. So that we can be emotionally and physically safe from STDs or domestic violence. What particular brain changes make addicts more likely to blame their partner?

Gary: Blame their partner, I don’t think you can put that down to a brain change. I think it’s just I feel bad about myself because I can’t control use, so I’m going to project it outwards.

There Is No Proof That Shame Causes Infidelity It’s Just an Excuse

Gary: I mean, this is the human nature we project our internalized state outward to the world. So the internalized state for an addict is I feel crummy, because number one, I’m using. That makes me feel crummy. Number two, I promise people. And I’m breaking the promise. Number three, I am causing damage to myself, my family, and my job. So I am having a negative effect. Since I don’t want to feel bad about myself, I’m gonna blame you, you’re the closest person to me.

Anne: You don’t think it has anything to do with their frontal lobe being damaged? Are there any issues with not being able to connect the dots? I noticed when my ex was using, he got dumb. He was totally, completely illogical.

Gary: That’s true. You’re exactly right. Fifteen studies have found this. The prefrontal cortex, the higher part of our brain, the one that controls impulses. The one that puts the brakes on you, yelling at your spouse or flipping someone off because you’re mad. And plans ahead and sees the consequences of actions, it does become weakened.

I won’t use the term damage, but it does become weakened. Yeah, there are about five or six studies that show less cognitive functioning or poorer cognitive functioning in addicts. In essence, they become dumber, and they have a lot harder time controlling their impulses. So yes, You are right, and it’s great you point this out, that would lead to someone wanting to scream at the partner.

Quitting Benefits Clear Thinking

Gary: And what’s interesting is thousands and thousands of self reports from young men who quit. One of the most common benefits is that they think clearer, their brain fog is gone. Their grades go up. And also what’s interesting and related to this is they can feel much more emotion, so they can have much more empathy. So if you’re lacking empathy, that too would cause you to lash out at someone close to you.

Anne: You’re lacking empathy, you’re lacking the ability to control your impulses, and your logic isn’t that sound. So you may blame your partner by saying she makes me feel shame.

Gary: You’re much more hyper reactive to any stressor, and again, lashing out.

Anne: Yeah, it seems like it wouldn’t be that difficult for someone who can’t connect the dots to blame someone else and say, shame causes infidelity? Yes, it’s not my fault. Women are so caught up in finding out how to know if their husband has a sex addiction.Let’s talk about the myth that addiction is an attachment disorder. https://www.btr.org/know-if-your-husband-has-a-sex-addiction/

Gary: I don’t like to label it an attachment disorder. In fact, I don’t like to label any of the addictions an attachment disorder, and there’s a myth out there Johan Hari put out a big TED talk that said, Oh, addiction is an attachment disorder. Again, let’s step back from that. So many addicts and users have wives and spouses, sons and daughters, and family and friends. Yet they continue to use.

Then we look at something that is obviously an addiction, smoking. They don’t study smokers and are more sociable, so they don’t have any attachment disorders. But yet they can’t quit despite severe negative consequences.

Withdrawal Symptoms & Stress

Gary: So I don’t even like the idea of it being an attachment disorder. I think that’s too simplistic.

Anne: I agree. I hate it. That’s why I love you so much. I’m like, thank you, because I’m surrounded by this. Shame causes infidelity and attachment disorder, and all these hand wringing things, and it just makes the wives feel terrible.

Gary: Oh yeah, and interesting enough, when they stop using, they have withdrawal symptoms. Now, sometimes it’s really bad withdrawal symptoms. Some guys will report even aches and pains, but it’s anxiety, restlessness, depression, brain fog. And so, in order to get over that, they’ll go back and use.

So both the lashing out, the inability to adapt to stress, cravings when you have stress, and withdrawal symptoms. These are all coming from one thing, a malfunctioning stress system. And chronic overuse caused that, because it occurs with drug addictions also.

Anne: Wow, wow, it makes so much more sense. I did not shame him. No, it’s his emotion. I can’t shame him, I was not capable of doing that. It helps me view it for exactly what it is. And I appreciate that.

Attachment Model Does Not Cause Infidelity Either

Gary: Even though it’s not methamphetamine or cocaine, they’ve done experiments on animals. Certain animals that fall in love with their partner. They’re called voles. So they actually learn the biological neurological mechanisms of falling in love and people by studying voles. What they found is, if you give, voles something that raises dopamine, methamphetamine or cocaine. Well, it raises dopamine as high as possible naturally.

And if you become addicted, It blocks the falling in love mechanisms. At least it is shown in animals. Again, we gotta separate the result of chronic online expoitation use. Rather than going back and saying, Oh, they originally had an attachment disorder, and then they became addicted. No, they became addicted, which interferes with attachment.

Anne: Right, they’re incapable of attachment because they use it.

Gary: Yes. I’ll use an extreme example, a mother addicted to cocaine. She doesn’t even take care of her baby. You can have milder examples. Look, a pornography addict is willing to ruin their marriage to continue to use it. So it is obviously affects their bonding with both their children and their spouse.

Anne: Exactly, so women, you don’t need to try “attaching” to an unsafe person.

Gary: We think about other addictions, the model, of course, is alcoholism. They don’t call that an attachment disorder. They suggest the alcoholic stop using. In fact, when someone who’s not in a relationship goes into AA, they say, don’t get into a relationship for a whole year. You need to focus on your sobriety.

Men Who Quit See Their Wives Differently

Gary: I monitor many forums, hundreds of thousands of men in relationships. They are quitting. And what they report after 30, 60, 90 days is they see their wife differently. They see their partner differently, they are more in love, they can’t believe they acted the way they did. They just want to shower her with love, finally when they can get it up, it is so much more exciting. They’re thrilled! And their wives are more thrilled, and they feel connected.

Did that person have an attachment disorder, or was it interfering with attachment? I think maybe they’re putting the cart before the horse. Yes, the addict may have trouble attaching. Is that because of their years of chronic and continual use of it? I would say yes, because I’ve observed the changes in how men view the women and experience the emotions, once again, of love and attachment after they quit. That needs to be looked at, addressed and acknowledged.

Anne: Absolutely, their not quitting is the problem. It’s like, oh, I had a relapse every day for seven days. Because I didn’t feel attached to you. But they need to be worthy to attach to! Do you think these therapists are coming up with this attachment stuff, shame stuff, and these people spreading this nonsense are addicts themselves, and they’re just trying to justify stuff and not feel bad?

Gary: All of us humans, because we’re in the human condition, have problems with relationships. You know, unless we’re enlightened, or Jesus, or in love with everyone, we’re gonna have problems.

Issues With The Attachment Disorder Model

Gary: I think it’s misguided to focus on that, as the cause of addiction. If the addict and user stop for a long time, you may see a change in their ability to express emotions. For them to feel love coming back at them from their friends, their kids, and especially their spouse. So I think it might be putting the cart before the horse with the attachment disorder model.

Anne: It’s not working for women. They’re trying to support their spouse who’s “in recovery.” Their spouse lies straight to their face. Telling them, yes, I’m in recovery. When he’s not really. And he’s not showing these brain changes that you’re talking about, where they can love their spouse more, or they can connect better because they’ve stopped using. They’re not happening. But the guy claims he’s in recovery.

“Leave me alone. I’m working on my recovery. You don’t have any right to talk to me about my recovery. They say the shame of talking about it causes infidelity, and that “you work on your side of the street.” That sort of thing. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop is specifically for wives of users. So that they know exactly what behaviors to look for, to know if they’re safe, rather than just taking the addict’s word for it. While they’re basically just manipulating their wife still and lying.

Gary: Right, there’s something nasty about addiction. It’s called the abstinent effect. This occurs with people who are religious. They’re using, and then they’ll take a break because they’re white knuckling it, and they’ll take a week off, two weeks off.

Shame Cannot Cause Infidelity: Cause And Effect

But what’s interesting is when you stop an actual addiction over the next two to three weeks, your brain changes. And it sprouts more connections to make the cravings even more intense. If you are exposed to something that causes cravings. The brain changes about three weeks out. And if you are under stress or exposed to some image. Your cravings are much stronger than they were a couple days after you quit.

They might watch it for five hours, and then they feel like crap, and then again they project it out on the world. So there’s often this binge cycle with two to three week gaps, and that actually causes more severe binging. So in other words, they need to get further down the line. They need to get 60, 90 days, 120 days away from binging.

Anne: And they need to be honest about where they are too. I think what’s happening right now, at least in my community, is they tell their wife they’re in recovery. Their clergy knows, the family knows, people are talking about it more, and so they know they have to be in recovery. They lie, and they just keep lying. Without the truth, there’s no way for them to get better. They know they’re supposed to be in recovery, and they’re not willing to be honest about their situation in so many cases.

Gary: Well, that’s just a normal addiction pattern.

Anne: Yeah, it’s, it’s not your fault, women. It’s not because you asked him to mash the potatoes, cut the tomatoes, nothing to do with shame, how would that cause infidelity? It has nothing to do with any of that. It is all him.

You Can’t Compete With Something That’s Not Real

Gary: Well, yes. And there’s this common myth that a wife, if she just gave a guy enough, he would give it up. But that’s not what happens in practice. We see that everywhere. The guy is compulsively addicted to it. Which means he wants to watch it.

He wants to click from video to video, and no single female can match the novelty, the variety he sees online. So the woman should never blame herself that she’s not enough. Because no one could ever be a thousand different women in a five hour binge.

Anne: You can’t compete with it.

Gary: No, so I think that’s why they turn to love. But if the person continues to use, it’s interfering with the attachment of the addict. So again, it comes back to the responsibility of the addict.

Anne: It doesn’t matter to us, why? If we try to figure out, is he grumpy because of stress at work or grumpy because of what he uses online? Is it because I shamed him? Is it because he went off his medication? Yeah, to us, the only thing that matters is when that abuse starts, that we set boundaries. Although its hard to set boundaries with your emotionally abusive husband.

Gary: Yeah.

Anne: Because if we try to figure out why and try to get him help, you need to go to the therapist. You need to do that. We just. get caught in the abuse cycle. The second that starts happening, it’s the time to detach, take a step back, set the boundaries you need and observe, just observe what they’re going to do from a safe distance.

Different Consciousness From Addicts & Victims

Gary: The common knowledge is you can’t fix an addict, it’s always up to the person.

Anne: Exactly, well you are amazing. Thank you so much. I am so excited to get this out. Yay, it’s my favorite.

Gary: Just a bit of a backstory. In my life, I of course, besides being non religious, didn’t think much about this kind of stuff and got into this observing. You know, year in and year out guys who are trying to quit. What was interesting about them was that there was no discussion about attachment. There was no discussion about blaming the wife, none of them. Literally hundreds and hundreds of thousands of posts, and none blame the spouse.

They’re all like, man, I did this, man, I did this, I’ve got to do X to quit. So it’s a real different consciousness that we’ve observed than what you’re experiencing.

Anne: I went through years of thinking it was an attachment disorder. Or that I was shaming him into his infidelity and addiction. I was abused because of it. It serves the perpetrators. It’s not a model that protects victims. People also kept telling me to forgive, now I know the truth about forgiving abuse.

Gary: Well, it’s great that you’re doing this. We’ve had discussions when I was out there of the tremendous need for this because, man, it’s really putting the partners into a bad position.

Gary: It’s causing PTSD, right?

Anne: Yeah, and when you go for help to a therapist who doesn’t know what they’re doing, or clergy and you get further traumatized, it’s worse.

Gary: And clergy everywhere, they just don’t get it, don’t know squat about addiction.

Anne: Yeah, that’s painfully obvious, it’s bad. Gary, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

324 episodes

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