If you’ve gotten a backpacking permit on the North Rim in the last decade, chances are you’ve talked to Steve Bridgehouse. Steve has worked at Grand Canyon in many capacities for the last 25 years. In this episode, Steve reflects on his Grand Canyon mentors, how he connects to landscape, and how he went from sitting in traffic in Washington DC to watching his roommate fall through the floor of their park housing at Big Bend.

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Jesse: Hey, this is Jesse. Today on the podcast, we're featuring an interview with North Rim backcountry ranger Steve Bridgehouse. Steve's had a long Park Service career, including 22 years here at Grand Canyon. We talk about his journey to the Park Service, his experience in the backcountry at Grand Canyon, and much more. Enjoy the episode.

Jesse: Maybe we'll just start with an introduction. Can you tell, for folks listening, what your name is, what your role is here at the North Rim and how long you've been in this position?

Steve: Yeah, I'm Steve Bridgehouse. I'm a long time backcountry ranger at the Grand Canyon. I think I've been doing the backcountry ranger thing at Grand Canyon maybe 22 years. And uh, this is one of the 12 different parks that I've worked in. So, but Grand Canyon has felt like home for a very long time.

Jesse: Yeah. Yeah. 22 years is a long time to be in, be in one place. Well, I want to kind of dig into sort of how you got here. But first let's let's just start with, like early, like, do you do you remember the first time you had a significant or memorable outdoor experience?

Steve: Well, I grew up in the southwest. I'm from El Paso, and, my dad retired out of the Army in El Paso. And my mom is German. And so, you know, she left, a very cloudy place and moved to the southwest. And so the first thing we did was set about seeing all the national parks and visiting all these great public lands. And I don't know if it was my first visit to the Grand Canyon, but when I was a young, early teen, I remember doing what a lot of early teens do. I remember walking down to have a Havasupai Gardens and, and, with my family, my mom and dad and, you know, my parents wanted to turn around, of course. And so I was, I was, I remember handing my mom the water bottle and saying, I'm going to go a little further and I'll catch up with you, you know. And so that's probably not an uncommon experience, but it it kind of speaks to the, to the nature of Grand Canyon if it's gravity or whatnot, but it just pulls people in and we just all want to see more and experience more and go for a longer hike. Whether that's a good idea or not.

Jesse: Yeah. That's funny. My my first like, real hike at Grand Canyon was also to Havasupai Gardens., yeah, when I was a little kid with my with my dad. We also, that is that story we hear a lot with, like, kids wanting to or people generally wanting to hike farther than the rest of their group. And it doesn't always end up great, but it seems like it went well for you so.

Steve: It did, you know, and I think, that was an early seed being planted and I, I think I just got the impression then that, well, you know, I was just behaving like anybody does. And people do this all the time, and people come back to the campground and say, I'm sorry, I was supposed to check out four hours ago, but I got pulled in, and, you know, it happens.

Jesse: Yeah. The Grand Canyon does that to you, it pulls you in, sometimes for 22 years.

Steve: Yeah.

Jesse: Um. So I'm curious, like from from those kind of earlier formative experiences, how did you make your way to the Park Service?

Steve: Well, when I was, when I was visiting all these parks, I knew at a very young age I was going to be a park ranger. And I didn't exactly know, looking back now, I didn't exactly know what that was, but I, I knew when I was in high school that I was going to be a ranger. I knew in college I was going to be a ranger. So I thought, you know, all these rangers, the rangers I see, you know, they're they're educators. They're people who have a science background or a history history background. And so I thought, and they all seem to be good communicators. And so I studied communications and journalism and I studied science and geology. And I just thought this is the best way I can prepare myself for this.

Jesse: Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. It sounds like those trips to national parks gave you the idea that you could be a ranger. Like, I feel like a lot of people I talk to, you don't know that it's a career option or, you know, even people that that I've hired into positions are like, oh, I never really knew that this could really be a career option.

Steve: Yeah. And I think even even parks, visiting parks sometimes is out of reach for people. And, you know, one great thing about national parks and public lands is that everybody's welcome, right. And so I felt like I had a chance. And people told me, prepare yourself for the challenges ahead, and it's going to take a very long time to get it permanently. And you'll probably give up before then. But as soon as I got out of college, I was applying to jobs and a lot of jobs. I was sending out applications to everybody, and I finally got picked up and, and, worked a handful of parks. And as you get that experience and you can communicate and show, yeah, I can do these things and be trusted, it grew into a career. And it's been, I can't imagine having done anything else. You know, if I had to walk away today, I would have to reinvent myself, and that sounds like a lot.

Jesse: Yeah, yeah. You're in too deep at this point. Yeah. Well, so speaking of kind of those first Park Service jobs, where where was your first one? How did that, how was that experience for you?

Steve: It was great. You know, I started volunteering when I was in college at the University of Texas, El Paso, and we have Chamizal National Memorial there. And I think that what I value about that time is that what was on display there and what was happening there was, you know, very real, you know, showing of, of culture. Like, the culture that was happening in El Paso contemporary when I was there is what was being celebrated there, you know. And so, you know, I was I was doing stuff like being a doorman in the theater for Ballet Folklorico or, you know, or, you know, all these things that were really important to the El Paso community were taking place. And it kind of laid a framework for seeing culture as a resource. And, and, the culture today has its history and that's one of these things that it was that that was, being shown there. And that's really meaningful, you know, to be able to think of the living culture today, having come from something where so many people might see parks today as the preservers of culture and history. And there it was, the very living history was on display. And then you could learn more about the history if you want it to. So it's a very contemporary, way of seeing culture. And, I think it was a great way to start.

Jesse: Yeah, yeah. Especially in your own community. I think it's pretty rare that you're able to work for the Park Service or volunteer for the Park Service in your own community. Often you have to travel, like pretty far to do that.

Steve: Yeah. And also, you know, your career, you can't just, snap your fingers and say, well, I'm going to become a ranger at Yellowstone. You know, I ended up going into Washington, DC and and working at the old Post Office Tower. And, you know, that's not some place I would have found myself working. But the Park Service has taken me to a lot of places I probably never would have lived and being part of communities I never would have been part of. So the Park Service for me has certainly been a a door that's opened and show me, it's really created. My entire adult life.

Jesse: Wow, um I'm curious like what, what sorts of formative experiences you've had in the Park Service?

Steve: Well, you know, every one of these resources is so different. You know, starting off at a memorial and going into a historic site, you know, suddenly I'm finding myself covering Ford's Theater and the Petersen Home where Lincoln was shot and where Lincoln died. You know, that's some place I probably would have visited once in my lifetime. And then suddenly I find myself working there. When I left Washington, DC, I really wanted to be back out west, and, I ended up in Big Bend, you know, being a fee collector and Big Bend and, what an incredible wilderness that is. And it was a much quieter part then, and, just getting into a place like that, I remember, camping out there and thinking, you know, since it's right on the Mexican border, there's not a lot of commercial flyovers and air flights over it. And I started to see the the sky as a resource. You know, I don't think I'd ever really considered the sky a resource. And then I was seeing the darkest night skies I've ever seen, you know, but there were a lot of things that I love about being in Big Bend and, and, you know, just having a six month window there and hoping. Well, one day I hope I get to come back and work here. And then it's in the past and I haven't worked back there since, but every one of these resources has been great.

Jesse: Well, I'm curious, you know, you went you said you went from DC to Big Bend.

Steve: Yeah.

Jesse: What was that transition like?

Steve: It was massive. You know, going from sitting in traffic to going to the to the park resources. You know, being in DC had incredible opportunities. You know, I would get invited to things, you know, to go go to the interior building, for example. And, and I remember one time someone said, hey, someone's written a book about the Park Service, so we need someone to go there. And I was sent there, and it turned out to be the, memorial service for Mollie Beattie, who was, the head of the Fish and Wildlife Service. And suddenly I was in this, you know, I walked into the room and I was shaking hands with, Secretary of Interior Bruce Babbitt, and Al Gore was there, and, the musical group The Byrds were playing music as a memorial to her. And I think that's those are the kinds of things that are only possible in a place like Washington, D.C.. I can laugh at it now.

Jesse: Yeah, yeah, that definitely is not happening at Big Bend or at the North Rim.

Steve: When I got to Big Bend, it was kind of like, what I expected from reading an Edward Abbey book. Like, suddenly I was living in a, you know, a 40 year old, 50 year old dilapidated trailer and, you know, I remember one time my housemate, Mike Reynolds, his family was visiting, and, and he was trying to show them, you know, some of the, some of the reasons he loves being a ranger. And he was standing on a section of the floor that was squeaking, and, and he fell through the floor. [laughing] Steve: And he was up to his waist, you know, at the floor level. And, all these javalinas that lived under our our, trailer. They all shot out in many directions. You know, I think there were probably 20 or 30 of them there. And so it was a huge contrast to move from a, an urban park, you know, pointing out features of the Washington, DC skyline to suddenly being in a really great wilderness and, you know, with extremes like, you know, I remember unpacking my, my household stuff and it was hot and I was wearing shorts and a t shirt and, you know, a couple of days later, a snow and ice storm came through and covered everything in, like, half an inch of ice. And so, a brave new world.

Jesse: Yeah, yeah. Totally different. It's funny I, I worked for Mike Reynolds a few years ago, and he, yeah, when I told him I was coming here to the North and he's like, oh, Steve Bridgehouse, he's there. He was my roommate way back when.

Steve: It's a really big community, you know, and as you work in more parks and you say, oh, I did a detail there, I was there temporarily or we have a mutual friend. I think there's still something like 20,000 of us. And so but a lot of us know each other, and I know our paths will cross again and again. So it's really satisfying about the career.

Jesse: Yeah. He, he's also a pretty tall guy. So for him to go up to his waist is, he went pretty far in that trailer floor.

Steve: Needless to say, his parents were not impressed. And, but he's gone on and been very successful, and now he's, you know, the superintendent of Death Valley. So, we're lucky to have him there.

Jesse: Yeah. For sure. So, you said you've worked for 12 different parks.

Steve: I have.

Jesse: And, you know, we don't need to cover all of them here, but I'm curious, like, what were some of the more, I guess, experiences or places that got kind of deep down in for you?

Steve: I think everyone's gotten through to me. When I left Big Bend, I went to Mesa Verde, and I had one season there as a seasonal interpretive and interpretive, guide. And, you know, taking groups of 50 through, you know, thousand year old architecture. And Mesa Verde is just a treasure. And you really feel like you're in an apartment complex, you know, it's just the, you know, seeing, you know, these these ancient builders might have left an infant baby print, you know, like a footprint of an infant and in a doorway, you know, or you might see loom hooks on the floor where someone was making, you know, weaving something, you know. But, what I got into there was, I was I had been exposed to these cultures before, but I started to understand what their calendars were. And at that time, we were trying to understand how people build their architecture relative to the sky. And, you know, there was just it kind of opened my eyes in a new sense. And, so it was really great. Even though I was very young, I was probably 22 or 23. Even if I had the chance to put on a backpack and help someone carry equipment, and just so that we could do this kind of science, it was really formative in shaping, you know, what my interests would become and how much, how much desire I would have to see more of this, you know, the history on display because, you know, national parks and other public lands, they protect these places. And I've spent most of my life running around and just trying to see some of this. And it's just fascinating.

Jesse: Yeah. I think, one of the cool things, too, about Mesa Verde is that there's still 22 Tribes that are connected to that place. And, you know, I had friends who've worked there, and they have had really powerful experiences with those Tribal members who still come back and, you know, continue to have their there's ancestral and cultural ties to that place.

Steve: Connections are still very strong. And, I'm happy to live in a time where, you know, all of us are listening a lot more to what those stories are. And listening to people today help us understand who was living there and why they were doing what they were doing. So I think especially for people who can listen, there's so much we can take in and learn, but, it is amazing to me too. And there are so many Tribes and so many people that I never would have expected have walked up to me and told me about the connections they have, the places. And I would, you know, it helps me to be less of a judge and to, you know, you know, like I said, just listen and try to see what I can learn from people. And it just goes on and on and on. So, one really cool place because, you know, when I was working at Mesa Verde, we would talk about, you know, where did these people go? And, and, I would say, oh, well, there are these, for example, like the Hopi mesa is out in Arizona, northern Arizona, that always seems so far away. I worked at Wupatki National Monument for a while, and it was it's right outside of Flagstaff, and I can't tell you there's nothing more satisfying than being able to say they haven't gone anywhere. They're right over there on those mesas that you can see on the horizon, you know, and, you know, Hopi people and Zuni people, they might come through and, visit these places, you know, and for them, it's visiting their ancestors and visiting their history. But none of this was something that happened and then left. You know, all of this is an ongoing, you know, existence here in that Colorado Plateau. And, we can learn so much about the people who live here today by looking at all the history. And it's all preserved all around us.

Jesse: Yeah. Um, well kind of getting to to Grand Canyon. I'm curious how you, you know, what was your entry into working here at the Canyon? What was your first job here? And, how did you get from that and to, to the position that you're in now?

Steve: Well, I got lucky. You know, I decided to make a sacrifice because I'd worked, you know, about four parks and and, I kind of wanted to get more of a view into where decisions were being made and what was going on in the upper level of, of Park Service and having, you know, had Washington, D.C. in my early career, I felt like I really wanted to get back to that. Mesa Verde was very premier, you know, and it was exciting to work there. And I decided to turn down, you know, a job in the Everglades campground, to go volunteer at Albright Training Center, which is one of the service-wide training centers. And I got in there and I worked in the, I worked I worked on the fundamentals planning, you know, which was writing service-wide, you know, training for the park rangers. And I worked in, the audio audiovisual, specialist for the Park Service, Jim Boyd's office. And right across the hall from where we were was a garage full of backpacks and camping gear and tents and stoves and everything. This was all left over from the Ranger Skills area, where all, you know, rangers have to, you know, law enforcement protection rangers, EMS Rangers, they're the most, trained employees that we have. And they all used to go through an extensive training at Albright Training Center. And so all this equipment was hanging there, and I was at Grand Canyon, you know, and and just like we were saying, you know, you look over the edge and, and you think, I have to do whatever it takes to get in there and see more and then see more and more. And so, I, you know, one of my first weekends there, I did an overnight backpacking trip down to Phantom Ranch and, you know, I started like everybody does. You know, I came to Grand Canyon really without any backpacking experience. And then, I slowly started to build confidence and go a little further out and wonder what was around the next corner. And, spread that map out over the table at the end of the day. And, and, you know, the job was pretty stressful, and it always has been. I know, you know. And so a nice way to, to cope is to get a map out and start thinking, well, where can I go and what can I do? And how can I feed my soul? And how can I, you know, just, you know, even get more sleep and winter, you know, like, go down there and get getting a sleeping bag for 12 hours. But that was, you know, Grand Canyon was really one of the luckiest things that could happen to me because, suddenly I had this new outlet and it was, you know, we're not making a lot of money. So, I was able to, you know, get together some equipment and go backpacking every weekend. It was very affordable. I didn't need to start a vehicle engine. I could just go. And a lot of my friends were like that, too. You know, we were just, we were living at a time where why wouldn't you go in the Grand Canyon and all these other places around around the Grand Canyon, too. But I met so many great rangers down in the Canyon. And, you know, I was just thinking recently of, Cale Shaffer, who was probably, I think he was the first preventative search and rescue ranger here. And he was about my age. And, you know, we run into each other on the trail and, you know, it was, it was just we were all just enthusiasts and that's how we were spending our weekends.

Jesse: Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, you said your first trip was down to Bright Angel Campground, and, it takes, you know, it takes some some research and some learning and some, some guidance to figure out where to go from there. Like the, the corridor trails the North Kaibab, the South Kaibab and the Bright Angel, those are the sort of obvious starting places. That's where the most information is, the most infrastructure. Most days you can get potable water down there. There's ranger stations, there's designated campgrounds, but it kind of gets more mysterious from there. So I'm curious how you branched out from the corridor trails to the threshold zones and then more primitive areas?

Steve: Well, a lot of it, I think, comes down to who we work with and what great mentors they made. I remember there was an interpreter on the South Rim, named Lon Ayres, and, he used to give an evening program. And you got to understand, I was probably 23 or 24, and I was, you know, getting excited about this Grand Canyon place. And he had a he had a, a slideshow he'd give called “Summits and Side Canyons”. And this was just stuff he did on his own time, but he was all over the place. He was getting out onto all those remote places. And I remember seeing photos of him holding a, you know, a Clovis point that he found in the Grand Canyon. And all of that was just, fuel for what I wanted to do. And and then suddenly I had this, you know, a resource like him and other resources like him that could help me. You know, I could ask questions. But that was invaluable. And, there were also people who are walking up to the backcountry office when I started in 1999, who were just, you know, figures that are still so well known. You know, I remember, George Mancuso was a photographer, who formed his little company called Granite Visions. And so that taught me, you know, was somebody I know who just. Backpacks. The Grand Canyon can also create a business where he's, you know, selling, you know, postcards out of the back of his car. You know, there were so many great people. George Steck, who wrote a lot of the, you know, that wrote a couple loop hike books for the Grand Canyon. You know, he was someone who would just walk up and get permits, you know, and him and his brother, Alan Steck, who was a world class climber, they would walk up and get permits from me. So, I developed this relationship with the people who were there and, and a lot of people at Grand Canyon and other places, they really got back into backpacking in the 70s and 80s. And by the time I came along the Grand Canyon in 98, a lot of them were having families and they were slowing down. And the people I was running into, they were legends, you know? So they were they were so prominent already and they were so down to earth. They all seem to have been humbled by the experience of going into the Grand Canyon and just finding their way around. And so not only were they really epic individuals, but they were also really down to earth. And, you know, I could have dinner with them, you know, go hang out. And, so all all of these folks, I remember prominent geologists coming up, you know, people would map the Grand Canyon like George Billingsley would stop by, you know, I remember, Bradford, Bradford Washburn stopping by the backcountry office just to see the backcountry office and say, hi to the staff. And this is another person who's legend. And he was, you know, doing a lot of mapping and, and and flying over places and photographing them and creating some of the maps that we still use today. And so it was so great to see my heroes and my legends and, and all that walking around. And again, they were so down to earth that, it was just a great community to be part of.

Jesse: Yeah. Well, to give listeners some context, in case they're not familiar with some of these names, like George Mancuso, there's a huge mural of him in Flagstaff, you know, on the side of the Peace Surplus Outdoor Supply building. George and Allen Steck, I think they did one of the very first and end through hikes of Grand Canyon from east to west. And, really opened the 150 mile Canyon route, too, which, is really an essential route for, accessing a lot of the area kind of down around Sinyella Fault, upstream of Havasupai Canyon and those areas. Some really important, like, yeah, really just really important work that they did to share knowledge. And I think there's the, a really good, tradition of people who did that, all that work in the backcountry, you know, finding these routes and things, sharing their information, too. And I think we're really lucky to benefit from that. So it must have been amazing to get to learn from and interact with those folks.

Steve: It was and they were really curious about what I was doing. And some of them were in their 60s or 70s, and they were still doing stuff here. But they wanted to know, well, what are you doing? Because I think they felt like there's a continuum and the legacy continues. And so what are you up to? You know, and they always laughed because, you know, I was always out doing my, bigger trips and winter and they were mathematics professors and they were always having summers off and, you know, and George’s case, in George Steck's case, he was, you know, always hiking with a group of 11. We used to call them the Steck Army, you know, because it was just like this army of people that were were going and he'd have his niece and his niece’s boyfriend and, you know, his brother and some climber shaped like an orangutan who could get them through anything, you know. So I really love the fact that people would, you know, want to just spend time. And, another person I met was William Kemsley, who was the founder of Backpacker Magazine, and he was working on a book at the time, and, and, featured some of the what I was telling him, talking to him about. And that became a book eventually. But, you know, when you're talking to people who were backpacking in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, if you think even just about how gear has changed and how attitudes have changed, it's like a it's a huge step. You know? I think something in my own case that really resonated too, was as I started getting into spending more and more time and maybe it was like four months a year backpacking in the Grand Canyon. We lost some of these people because I was so young and they were older. So, you know, in the stack, in the case of, Cale Shaffer, you know, he was, Denali ranger who died in a plane crash going to work. George Mancuso and his hiking companion died in a flash flood in a Little Colorado River in 2001. So that definitely resonated. Harvey Butchart, you know, who was, like, the master Grand Canyon backpacker, another mathematics professor, you know, he died in 2002. George Steck died in 2004. Bradford Washburn died in 2007. And so I think it also, placed on me, you know, I wanted to continue exploring the Grand Canyon and just seeing what I could. And I realized that my time is limited, and I need to be deliberate about seeing this place if I'm going to. And so I knew it would take a lifetime. And, you know, I started doing two and three, two and three night trips for my weekends and then, you know, spending my furloughs when I was laid off and I had a couple of months off, I would start spending all that time down there. I really got into doing two week trips at some point and just doing, longer and longer explorations into the Grand Canyon and some of that. I've kind of backed off of. And maybe the last 10 or 15 years I've, I thought, how do I get out to that really remote place or that place that I know is waterless? And if I go in there with enough water, can I find more water and keep going? Or we'll have to turn back and and so I feel like it really has taken a lifetime to put some of this stuff together. And since I knew I was going to be doing this so long, you'll love this, you know, I, I even blocked off parts of the Grand Canyon that I wouldn't let myself visit, so I wanted to always have a chance to see something premier like, I knew I wanted to be in my 40s and 50s and 60s and seeing stuff I'd never seen before. So, you know, I took, you know, the whole bunch of terrain between North Bass and Phantom Creek over by North Kaibab and just said, you don't get to touch it, you don't get to see it, you know, and so that, you know, I could get in, you know, 20 years and then say, okay, now you can see it. And so I was really trying to think about this as like a lifetime process rather than trying to get it done. And I don't think I'll ever get it done. And I don't think the interest will ever be in completing anything. And that's something I learned from Lon Ayres, I think, is that when he sectioned, hiked the Grand Canyon with his hiking companion, he got all the way from Lake Powell all the way down to Lake Mead. And I asked him, I said, you know, what, are you going to turn around and walk back on the other side, or what do you do? You know, how do you follow that up? And he said, you know, I can close my eyes and I can visualize the entire Grand Canyon, and I feel like I'm done. And so maybe I will get to a place like Lonn did, you know? But have still some more work to do. You know.

Jesse: Yeah, I don't I don't know. I think that's a pretty bold statement to me. Like, I feel like I'm done. I, I it's hard to imagine ever feeling like there's not more out there. At least to me, I don't know, but the place is so vast. You're right. It's like it's it's many lifetimes worth of immersion.

Steve: And there's so many experiences that I've had that they're not even a big part of the Grand Canyon, you know, like, I, getting into some sections. And I remember one time, I spent a winter and spring just backpacking, you know, in the western Grand Canyon, and and, I didn't even carry a water filter. I really had to pare my stuff down because I was going on really long extended trips. I knew that I wouldn't need a tent because I had overhangs. And so really, what I had was, you know, a bag full of food and a sleeping bag and a pad. And then I had, a digital camera, tripod, a film camera and a gallon Ziploc bag full of rolls of film. And so I was really going as minimally as I could. And since it was cold and that I advised anybody to do this, but I was just drinking water right out of the pools like a dog, you know, like on my hands and knees, drinking water out of a pool. I was really tired. And then I flopped down and, kind of looking up at the sky. And I looked over and there was this, Jasper Rock, you know, it was maybe the size of a baseball. And I picked it up and it had, it fit perfectly in my hand, and it had this ridge that was kind of like something you can imagine somebody cutting something with. And I'm sure that nobody's ever picked up this rock or thought anything about it. But I thought, you know, was somebody cutting a mammoth with this, was somebody cutting a bison, you know, someone long ago held this rock and was grateful for this water right next to me, just like I was grateful, you know? And so a lot of the experiences that I seek now, you know, I don't know that it's about completing anything or anything of that nature. I think there's still a lot of places I would like to visit and just see fall colors, you know, to be down in that canyon during a different season, you know? So wildlife always changes things when you get the rare sighting of something cool. So, you know, I'm someone who tries to go through life and I'm just happy with what I find. And in a place like Grand Canyon, I've always been happy. There's always so much to enjoy. If I feel like I'm getting rusty on my geology, I pull those books out. If I'm getting rusty on my birds, I get my field guides out and learn it again. So it just seems like something that's going to be with me for a long time. And, yeah, I don't want to think about leaving it either.

Jesse: Yeah, yeah, it really it really gets into your under your skin and into your bones, I think. I, you know, I left Grand Canyon in 2016 after working there here for two years and then just couldn't get it out of my mind. I just I had to come back, like two years later, I came back and I've been here for seven years since then, so.

Steve: You'll be coming back over and over. And there are a lot of people like you know that, you know, they live in Chicago or they live in Berlin. And when they get their vacation time they fly into Vegas, rent a car and come straight here. And so I think that what could be more impressive than that, that a place can grab a hold of somebody like that. And, there are a lot of us.

Jesse: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Well, um thinking back to something you mentioned earlier with, you know, a lot of the people that helped you learn about the Canyon. One of the things that they learned from the canyon with humility. I'm curious if you had a moment, you know, on a backcountry trip or just in general in the Canyon when, you you learned some humility from the Canyon?

Steve: Well, there's, you know, studying geology. The having any background in any of the earth sciences will humble someone right away. And just getting in and seeing something like a fossil or, you know, we think so much about climate change today and how rapidly things seem to be changing. There really is no better place on earth, I think, to, to be to observe something like that over time than to be inside the Grand Canyon and think, you know, I'm in a rock layer that, existed or was, you know, deposited before there was oxygen in our environment or before there was life on Earth. I remember doing a filming project with somebody on the South Rim and, he was, a scientist who said, you know, there was so much oxygen on the earth at this time that the dragonflies and everything grew to be really large. And these dragonflies apparently had like three foot wingspans and so, you know, that helps one gain some proper perspective. And it's such a great place to continually think about these, you know, when you're when you're at the edge of the Colorado River and you look in and you think of a raindrop in the Colorado River, or is the entire Colorado River and a single raindrop, like you can really start to extrapolate and and think about near or far relationships. You know, it's, it's kind of mind boggling what is available to someone who just walks in or stands at the edge of a place like the Grand Canyon and considers and so much human history that's been here. It's really, it makes me feel very temporary.

Jesse: Yeah. I'm not sure there are many better places, at least I had not that I've experienced for, helping you gain perspective than the Grand Canyon. Especially, as, you know, you're saying when you went to Big Bend, having those first views of the dark night sky, Grand Canyon, plus the dark night sky like, to me, there's fewer, more humbling experiences.

Steve: When I was a Natural Bridges, you know, we, it was after the 9/11 attacks and visitation started to plummet and the superintendent tasked us with trying to find a way to bring visitors in. It's not that visitors are money to us, and that's all. But when visitation plummets, we don't have money for our programs. And so one of the things we decided to do was to make that the first international dark Sky park. And sometimes I look back on that and I think in 2007 or so, I think, well, good we cross that bridge and now that's done. But that movement has continued all over the world. And and I hope that even people in towns and cities someday will say, well, we value the night sky too. We should get to enjoy this. We should be able to understand our relationship with with the cosmos and all that universe that's out there. And as a photographer, I go out there and do night sky photography, and I can't even see with my eyes what my what my camera captures. You know, a minute later I'm looking at what that sky really looks like. And, you know, the tools that we have are so, you know, brilliant. They can show us so much. So you're right, you know, seeing something at Big Bend 20 years ago maybe helped me think, well, why don't we make more parks like this? And now I'm still puzzled by all that and still, you know, trying to understand my place and at all. And it is all very humbling.

Jesse: Yeah, absolutely. You know, kind of going back to another thing that you said earlier, you know, about, well, I guess you were, your first years here at Grand Canyon you were seeing all of these kind of legends of of the Canyon pass away. I wonder if you felt any responsibility to carry on their legacy of sharing knowledge during that time?

Steve: Yeah. I think it was a very different time. And, and a lot has changed, you know, so I remember when, when George Mancuso died in 2001, you know, it was probably around that same time that, some folks out there were considering building a blog. You know, none of us knew what a blog was, but the internet was kind of in its infancy, and people started to consider what it could do for them. So I remember when the, Grand Canyon and Hikers and Backpackers Association approached the park and said, we're thinking about doing this thing. Do you want anybody from the park to be present to talk about it? Any concerns you have? And so I remember going over to the community building and sitting down with them and I would have never imagined that I had some idea, but things really took off then. And and then people had a means of in a mass sort of sense, they were able to share information about water sources and information. And so really, I got to witness something like that. And, you know, by 2012, I think that the social media had fully settled in by then. And it changes everything about how people, you know, learn about the place and, and consider what they can do. So a lot of things have changed in my time. And, packrafting was not a thing. Canyoneering was not really very popular here at Grand Canyon. And so I think those kinds of things came along and, you know, you had a lot of enthusiasts out there and you had a very, a lot of very informed hikers. And so they were immediately sharing everything. And I'm kind of from an era when I intentionally, you know, turn my back on all kinds of information. I didn't want to know anything, or I wanted to know as little as I could because I wanted to go discover it for myself. And, I don't have any regrets about that. Someone like Harvey Butchart or George Steck, they wrote books that were very instrumental in my early times. But, you know, for the last 20 years, information about water sources, you know, had been shared and GPS coordinates for everything. I've always shunned that because what I take enjoyment from is going out and just seeing if I can do something and seeing if I can find something and what will I encounter along the way. And so, people have a lot of tools today. I really don't use them, but it's a whole different world, you know? And so, while someone like George Mancuso was, you know, dropping rope over a lot of the canyons here that had never been rappelled, I found all that interesting. And he was keeping journals and everything, but it's such a different time. And, with George Steck, I remember, having a conversation with George Steck and he, he gave us Robert Benson's journals at the backcountry office and said, well, you all might like reading this. And I told him, I said, you know, you should really consider, you know, how broadly you want this to go because something like this and the study collection would really, you know, benefit people who have these questions. And, he did he put it in the study collection. And, you know, now the through hike of the Grand Canyon is kind of like the, the standard or the measure a lot of hikers will judge, judge themselves and each other by. So it's just a lot of different time has passed.

Jesse: I'm curious, you know, as the availability of information has changed, I'm curious how you have observed differences in your interactions with visitors here at the backcountry office.

Steve: I think since there are so many tools, the old school backpacker doesn't really show up asking questions anymore because they got a username and password and now they have it all. And so, we've kind of turned into more of a visitor center. It's very rare that I get a question that I would like, you know, like someone really asking about something.

Jesse: Yeah.

Steve: And so I think with the tools out there, everybody, practically everybody but me gravitates towards them. And so, but, you know, there are there are a lot of different ways that people are seeing the place now. And I also think that because information is at our fingertips, you know, people are able to jump right into something epic a lot quicker, you know, and so but I think, I think the way information is being shared is different. And when I started, you would go into the ranger station and just ask, does anybody know anything? And so that's what the process was. And Rangers had to be very informed to keep up. And I think there's less of that. I think there's less of that today.

Jesse: Yeah, I think so too. I mean, I, my introduction to the Grand Canyon backcountry was like similar to yours in a lot of ways, like learning from other people. Oh, hey, this is a cool route. Like go try this one or like, and this, here are some things you need to watch out for on this route. Reading books, Grand Canyoneering was a big one for me, the Steck Loop Hikes books. But yeah, more and more of it's online and you, you're still relying on the knowledge of others, but you don't have to interact with them directly as, as much as you used to. And I, you know, we've had lots of conversations about routes in the backcountry office. And, I think there's definitely, well, just in general, something very valuable about that, the face to face interaction and knowledge sharing that we're kind of missing a little bit.

Steve: The hiker changes, you know, and, I've changed in my own time. And I see it in the Sierra as much as I see it here. I've spent a lot of time in the High Sierra and I'm kind of, I'm one of the only people that I see that is still just going into places with as much time and food as possible, and just trying to explore because of what's taken off as long distance hiking and, and these through hikes and, so I'm the one carrying a giant backpack and everybody else is zipping through. And when I started, you know, if anybody was doing a hike that was more than ten miles long, we would flag it. It was all of a sudden a warning signs would go up. And now I talk to people routinely who want to do 25 or 35 mile days. And so it was something that as I watched it evolving, I said, you need to be careful not to judge people because, and also give the people what they want. Right. Like if someone is coming here for a 25 mile a day hike, who am I to say you can't do it or that you shouldn't do it? Or haven't you thought about this, that? They'll be okay. You know, like they're, there's a new kind of walker.

Jesse: It's uh, It can be hard to learn that my way of enjoying something is not THE way to enjoy something.

Steve: That's right.

Jesse: Yeah, but it's an important thing to learn.

Steve: Yeah, and I don't need to really place myself in the middle of someone's trip and tell them how it should be. You know, what I do every day is just try to gain advocacy from the public because I want them to support national parks. I want them to have a good experience with a ranger, and that's really where it needs to stop for me. And if they have questions, then I want to help them. But for a lot of people, you just have to, you know, let them have the oxygen and let them go. And I was doing that. And if anybody told me, you know, 20-25 years ago, you shouldn't be doing this, you know, I would have ignored them.

Jesse: Yeah, yeah. Of course. Yeah. The minute you tell somebody they can't do something is the minute they're going to like, definitely go out and do it.

Steve: It's an invitation.

Jesse: Exactly. Yeah. For sure. Well, you know, you you mentioned that the way you, experience the backcountry has changed recently. I know you've been working on, some big photo projects recently as well, so I'm curious. Well, let's let's first just start, like with how you got into photography. And then we'll get into what you're working on now.

Steve: Well, I think, you know, my mom was always painting when I was young. She was an oil painter. So there was always this frame with something taking place in the middle of it. And just being a traveler, you know, you know, pre smartphone, everybody had cameras. And going into the Park Service people would say, well, you know, it's really great that you're a ranger and a photographer. And I think, how else could it be, you know, like how it was so hard. You know, I've gone through all kinds of different stages in my life, and there were times I refused to carry a journal or a camera because I just wanted to be in the wilderness, and I didn't want any distractions. Those were pretty short periods in my life. But I've always had a camera and I've always had, you know, people around me that I could ask questions to. And I've always seen brilliant art everywhere I've lived. And, you know, working in the national parks, you have artists all around you. You have writers and, you know, poets and painters and everybody, I can't even count how many people I've been exposed to that, that are just, you know, art is a central focus on their lives. I, working with Lon Ayres, I remember, he had a really nice camera, and I was using the point and shoot, and he let me borrow his camera, let me borrow his tripod. And so I bought my first camera that was really worth something, you know, like maybe 2001 or 2002. I was ready to up my game, and I bought, you know, a Leica German camera and went out shooting 35 millimeter film. And, and all of that has just kept growing. And, you know, when you live in these places and they're so accessible and you see these things that are beyond description, I think it's it's natural to want to capture that so you can enjoy it a little longer, see it again, share it with someone, show someone. I've never shown my work before this year, but I was working at with Wupatki National Monument and I saw their centennial coming up. I always wished I'd had more time during some of the other parks that I'd worked in, you know, during their centennials, I'd always wish that I had time to do something. And I decided that this was going to, you know, be the be the the occasion that I was going to try to really do something nice for the park and showcase the park properly. The process of being a photographer has changed for me a lot, too. I worked four years at Cabrillo National Monument, and I was right on the coast outside San Diego, and I got into doing time lapse of clouds. You know, again, the technology was developing. I had this computer that I could record this stuff with, and my progression has naturally been just getting more and more interested in the sky and the clouds and these really great big themes, you know. And so when I got to Wupatki, you know, Wupatki National Monument features a lot of 800 year old architecture that I could place up against the sky that I've been photographing. And, I ended up producing some really great photography out of it. I've never really printed photography before, and, I had to learn the process of taking a photo that looks good on a laptop, since I'm always living on the move, and then printing it and adjusting things so that the print on the wall looks as good as the monitor screen does, you know? And so I worked with a master print me of their name, Jim Crable and, he helped me print my work. And so this is the first year I've really launched it. And with Wupatki National Monument, the centennial, there was a great vehicle for that. So I have an exhibition of 33 prints at the Edge of the Cedars Museum in Blanding, Utah. They’re one of the archeological centers of the southwest. And, you know, I've got a couple other places that my work is showing right now. And so for me, I felt like my photography was finally good enough to be worth sharing, and other people were enjoying it. So it's it's very satisfying for me to be able to share this work because I'm sitting on a mountain of it. But this is definitely my best photography, and I think it'll continue. You know, I feel like, you know, whenever I get to some spot, I could just say, well, that's done. You know, I'm glad I accomplished that. I'm very proud of what I've managed to do there. But now I'm already thinking, so where does this go? What next? And, there are a lot of subjects I'd still like to expose, and I'm this type of person who always has a tripod behind the seat in my truck, and I'm always thinking about photography. So, maybe the next move will be doing something with all this time lapse material that I have. And, you know, I'm not a filmmaker, so I know, you know, maybe this process has given me more, a little more confidence to say, well, you learned how to print and you learned how to get this stuff on a wall. So what do you want to learn to make films? You want to put this stuff together? And I don't know I don't know yet where it all goes.

Jesse: Yeah. You're not a filmmaker yet.

Steve: I know, I know, and we'll see. Sounds like a lot of work.

Jesse: Yeah, yeah, yeah it does.

Steve: And to do it well, you know, when I look at stuff out there, when I see what professional photographers and filmmakers make, I am still in awe. Just like, you know, all of us are. We see this stuff and they've shown us something in a whole new way. And so, I'm glad that I don't have the motivation of trying to make a living at this. So far, what I've learned is I can put a lot of stuff up as long as I'm willing to pay for it. And, trying to make it profitable. Now, there's a lot of competition.

Jesse: Yeah, definitely. I imagine it's pretty satisfying to see your work printed on large scale, as opposed to just on the laptop. What's, yeah, what's that been like? And to be able to see people interacting with it as well.

Steve: Yeah. Especially with these really big subjects like sky, you know, if I'm using a really wide angle lens, it might be taking in 180 degrees. And and so what's fun for me is standing in front of my own work and seeing it in print form, because I can kind of scrutinize it too. But it takes me back to the moments, and I have all the memories of when I was doing that and what it was like, you know, because there's a whole life that's attached to this stuff, and I'm kind of a storm chaser. So I remember, you know, driving out of Flagstaff with a grocery, you know, with a truck full of groceries and thinking, I just need to get this stuff home. And then thinking, well, these clouds are too good. I'm going to shoot over here and just set the set up, you know, and spent, you know, 3 or 4 hours getting photography. Time lapse is really satisfying because you you take these long periods of time and compress them and get to see what's happening. And so I think a lot of where my photography grew from is looking up at the sky and not even being sure what direction the clouds are going or what's happening, and then you use that as a tool to to find it, you know, find out what's actually happening. But seeing it on a wall and seeing other people look at it, um it's really very satisfying, you know, because it all starts with, you know, deciding to buy camera equipment, trying to learn a skill, watching tutorials, learning from whoever it's possible to learn from. It's, you know, trying and trying and trying and just, fine tuning what the work is. And, the process is, you know, a big part of my life, and I love it, but seeing some kind of finished product on a wall and letting someone engage it or come over and talk to me about what was going on at that time or what's kind of technical decisions were being made. It really is great, you know, and I'm so glad it's not just sitting on an external drive and in the dark, you know?

Jesse: Yeah.

Steve: And so, the process of sharing anything, any time is always satisfying to, to, to, you know, increase its range and, let people take it in. It's very, it's really great.

Jesse: Yeah. What do you think it is about photography that helps you connect with a landscape?

Steve: There are so many ways to see that, you know, I remember, when I came back, because I'm like you, I've left the Grand Canyon a few times and come back. At one point, I was doing a lot of flights with the park as a passenger, and doing boundary patrols and stuff like that, and, getting up in the sky and getting a perspective over the Grand Canyon is so satisfying. It's one more way to see it. And it also helped me to kind of develop a photo library of, of much of the Grand Canyon. So if I was ever curious about something, it would help me kind of push myself further into the backcountry, and I would see that one of the rock layers, you know, had a ramp that went through it, and I could zoom way in on the photos. You know, the way I often see my own work is I projected on a on an eight foot wide screen. And so sometimes I'm in my living room, standing right next to the screen in front of me and looking at it and saying, I wonder if I can get through that?

Jesse: Yeah.

Steve: And I wonder if I could get enough water out there to do it. And so for me, you know, that's one example of how photography has opened up a different way of seeing the Grand Canyon, because then I get out there and, I'm not sure many people would have found their way out to a place like that. Maybe nobody. But it it keeps me, it's not even that I'm seeing the Grand Canyon in a different way. In a lot of a lot of cases. I'm seeing it for the first time. And when I left the Grand Canyon between 04 and 09, I wanted to leave because I would look into the Grand Canyon and I would just see these routes and hiking routes and places I've been, and I thought, I need to get a little distance from this place. I need to go away and come back and find it less familiar. And that's one thing I really like. I don't like knowing it all. I don't like understanding it all. I like going in and I like the uncertainty and and being unsure, you know, I just want to, see things for the first time, like anybody would. And so photography really, and other arts, you know, they show us so many different things, you know, and so there are a lot of artists out there and, and, you know, it's kind of like they're grappling with what they see, what they experience, what they feel, their understanding of themselves. You know, arts are so valuable to all of us and, that's why I arts are in all of our lives.

Jesse: Yeah. Yeah. Well said. I like what you said, too about wanting to feel like you don't, like there's unknown still. I'm curious if there's a place, you know, you said you've been saving some some places in Grand Canyon for the future. Are there, like, what are what are some or one place in the Canyon that still holds a lot of mystery for you?

Steve: I respect tribal sovereignty. And so, you know, especially when you're talking about the south side of the river, river left, you know, you have, the Diné Nation there. You have the Hualapai and Havasupai Tribes. Those are a lot of the places that I've never seen. And I think that in my lifetime, maybe I will see some of those. It's okay if I don't. You know, I never had the impression that I wanted to conquer something like Grand Canyon, or I wanted to finish it. And I feel bad for people who go through the Grand Canyon and do something epic and then feel like they've accomplished everything that they wanted to accomplish. Because I, I hope I never have that feeling, you know, I hope I’ll always have my health so that I can keep doing what I love. But the Tribal lands are the places that I really haven't seen. And then there are a lot of places where I would love to just go out and spend a month or six weeks. And I know that sounds kind of ridiculous, but the scale of Grand Canyon, some of these places are really, if you ever wanted to stand a chance of getting to know them, you would really have to put a lot of time towards it. And, and there are lots of things that are not time like vehicles and, you know, legwork and, you know, that it's, it's a big, big place. It's big, big country. So there are a lot of places I would love to get to know better. And there are a lot of places I'd love to return to, and some of them are out in the middle of nowhere that I've spent almost no no time in. Other places are the ones that I've done ten times, like the loop hikes that are possible off of the South Rim. I would love to spend a winter down in the South Rim just doing those again, because they're just so great. And so when people say, hey, I'm doing my second backpacking trip in the Grand Canyon, I'm going to go do this 2 or 3 night loop. I still feel this envy deep inside where I think even though I've done that over and over, I really want to do that again so badly, you know? So I'm excited for them. And, and, you know, we talk to people here have never seen the Grand Canyon before. And so that's really we're very privileged to be able to have the experienceonce in a lifetime to even see the Grand Canyon, you know, to stand on the rim and look into the Grand Canyon or to stand at the edge of the river and, consider all that time and all that, all that, everything now. So, you know, hopefully this goes on.

Jesse: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the best we can hope for is that we still can do it. You know, I think of people like Doug, who are, he spends half of his weekends, you know, backpacking in the Canyon, and he's in his 70s. Podcast listeners will know him from many past episodes. But yeah, we'll be lucky if we can if we if we're like him.

Steve: You know, we're on the North Rim. And one of the most popular hikes up here is Widforss and, you know, it's a five mile hike out. And if you're willing to carry your water you can spend a night out there. I'm still blown away by the fact that a hiker can do that, that we live in a place where you can get a permit and you can put 2 and a half hours into backpacking and spend the night out on the rim by yourself and look out over all that greatness. It's just, I know I've been doing this for a long time, but some of those really simple things, it still amazes me that they can happen. And so, yeah, I've seen hikers who go a long time and they just keep going and going and they take care of themselves. And, you know, they don't take unnecessary risk because they think I really just want to keep doing this more than anything else. And um, that's outstanding. You know, it's not a place that, you close the book on and and take it back to the bookshop and, and trade it in. You know, it's something that you spend your time in.

Jesse: Yeah, yeah. Well said. Well, you know, as we kind of wrap up here, I'm curious if there, you know, 22 years here at Grand Canyon, I'm curious what is the like 1 or 2 most important things you've learned from the Canyon in your time here?

Steve: Well, there are so many lessons in timelessness. You know, our place in it. I think that, you know, some of the larger life concepts like, you know, I feel my own stress and I think, you know, in context of Grand Canyon, am I taking myself too personally, to literally, too seriously? Some of these things come up when I think about how very big this place is, you know, and, I, I think it's kind of like a mirror for a lot of us. I think a lot of us will continue to learn more and more about ourselves by spending time in places like the Grand Canyon, whether we’re solo backpackers, or we go with our friends and we do these things. We want to just continue to build these lifetime, lifelong experiences. And this place is willing to give them. It's a great backdrop for all of this. So I think a lot of what I expect to still learn about the Grand Canyon is really what it'll show me about myself. You know? How I'll continue to learn about myself as I age and as I, you know, have to change how I do things. This is a really great learning tool.

Jesse: Yeah, I think that's a great place to wrap it up. Is there anything that we didn't cover that you'd like to add, or, talk about?

Steve: I don't know, I thank you so much, Jesse, and and thank you for your years of service as a ranger here. It's really been great working with you. And, you’re like a lot of people I've worked with, it's just been a pleasure. And, you know, good luck as you go on, too.

Jesse: Yeah, likewise. It's also, yeah, been great learning from you and, working with you as well. The Behind the Scenery podcast is brought to you by the interpretation team at Grand Canyon National Park. A huge thanks to Steve for sharing his experiences and perspectives. We gratefully acknowledge the Native peoples on whose ancestral homelands we gather, as well as the diverse and vibrant Native communities who make their homes here today.

Jesse: Um oh, is it true that your, the cabin that you live in by the north entrance is the inspiration for the Log Cabin Maple Syrup cabin?

Steve: That's what I've heard. You know, I've been in the study collection. Apparently, Log Cabin Syrup has done a lot to restore cabins all over the country. And apparently that cabin is the one that's on the on the logo of the Log Cabin Syrup if you're familiar with that. So, but, you know, always separating, you know, the myth from the truth everywhere we look, we should always dig deeper and.

Jesse: Yes. Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah. Thanks so much, Steve. It's been a great conversation. Really appreciate it.

Steve: Thank you, Jesse.

Jesse: Yeah.