Best Lloyds List Podcasts (2025)

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Has the green transition been blown off course? 28:19

Play Pause

3h ago28:19

28:19

CLIMATE diplomacy is not dead, but it’s not looking too healthy right now.A month after the International Maritime Organization’s Net-Zero Framework was put on life support for a year in the hope that a cure could be found, many of the same politicians, negotiators, non-governmental organisations, claques and hacks still reeling from that setback h…

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20VC: Scale, Surge, Turing, Mercor: Who Wins & Who Loses in Data Labelling | Is Revenue in Data Labelling Real or GMV? | Why 99% of Knowledge Work Will Go and What Happens Then? | Why SaaS is Dead in a ... 1:08:16

7h ago1:08:16

1:08:16

Jonathan Siddharth is Founder and CEO of Turing, one of the fastest-growing AI companies advancing frontier models. Jonathan has led the company to an astonishing $350M ARR with just $225M raised and a profitable company. A Stanford-trained AI scientist, Jonathan previously helped pioneer natural language search at Powerset, which was acquired by M…

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20Sales: John McMahon on How to Hire, Train & Retain the Best Sales Reps | How Sales Changes in a World of AI | Sales Lessons from Snowflake and MongoDB | How to Create and Drive a Sales Process with Urgency ... 1:08:30

3d ago1:08:30

1:08:30

John McMahon is widely regarded as one of the greatest enterprise-software sales leaders of all time. He's the only person to have served as Chief Revenue Officer at five public software companies: PTC, GeoTel, Ariba, BladeLogic and BMC Software. He helped scale BladeLogic from a startup into a public company — ultimately leading to its ~$880M sale…

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20VC: Anthropic Raises $30BN from Microsoft and NVIDIA | NVIDIA Core Business Threatened by TPU | Sam Altman's "War Mode" Analysed | Sierra Hits $100M ARR: Justifies $10BN Price? | Lovable Hits $200M ARR ... 1:30:09

4d ago1:30:09

1:30:09

AGENDA: 04:06 Anthropic's $30BN Investment from Microsoft and NVIDIA 07:01 Google vs. OpenAI: Sam Altman's "War Mode" Memo 15:27 NVIDIA's Customer Concentration: Bull or Bear 22:12 Is "War Mode" BS: Does Hyper-Aggressive Ever Work? 36:12 Sierra Hits $100M ARR: Justify $10BN Price? 46:14 Implementation is the Biggest Barrier to Enterprise AI Growth …

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150. Sir Douglas Flint CBE: Chairing listed companies - lessons from the BP Macondo crisis, HSBC and the abrdn rebrand 45:00

4h ago45:00

45:00

Sir Douglas Flint CBE is chair of Aberdeen, IP Group and the Royal Marsden NHS Trust and former chair of HSBC Group Holdings and NED at BP. Tune in to hear his thoughts on: The most valuable lessons Sir Douglas has learnt from the chairs he’s worked with (2:07) How chairs build consensus - the example of BP Chair Peter Sutherland (4:45) How to hand…

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20VC: Base44's Maor Shlomo on How Vibe Coding Will Kill SaaS and Salesforce | Why it is BS that Vibe Coding Platforms Do Not Have Defensibility and Bad Margins | Why He Worries About Google, Not Replit ... 1:11:43

7d ago1:11:43

1:11:43

Maor Shlomo is the Founder and CEO of Base44, the AI building platform that Maor built from idea to $80M acquisition by Wix, in just 8 months. Today the company serves millions of users and will hit $50M ARR by the end of the year. Before Base44, Maor was the Co-Founder and CTO of Explorium. AGENDA: 00:05 – 00:10: How Vibe Coding is Going to Kill S…

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20VC: Max Altman on The New Seed War: Can Anyone Compete with Sequoia and a16z | Leaving $2BN on the Table with Reddit | Lessons from Backing Rippling at $25M Post | Why Climate Tech is a Mirage and Disaster ... 1:19:22

10d ago1:19:22

1:19:22

Max Altman is Co‑Founder & Managing Partner at Saga Ventures, a US$125 M early‑stage fund. Before Saga Max was an investor with Apollo Projects, Hydrazine Capital and Altman Capital (where he helped deploy over US$500 M) into breakout names such as Rippling and Reddit. AGENDA: 03:55 – Venture Capital Is FULL of Tourists With Single-Digit IQs 06:20 …

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20VC: Cursor Raises $2.3BN: Who Wins the Coding War | Peter Thiel and Softbank Sell NVIDIA: Analysed | Why Venture Capital Will Hit $1TRN and the Opening of Retail | Why Stripe and the Best Companies Will ... 1:22:38

11d ago1:22:38

1:22:38

AGENDA: 04:47 Cursor Raises $2.3BN at $29BN Valuation 11:36 What Gemini 3 Means for Lovable, Cursor and Replit 30:54 Peter Thiel and Softbank Sell NVIDIA: The Bubble Bursting? 48:54 Oracle Credit Default Swaps: The Risk is Increasing 01:07:22 Stripe Does Tender at All-Time High: Why the Best Companies Will Never IPO 01:19:18 Why Retail WIll Cause a…

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149. Mark Winlow: Bank & Insurance Boards - lessons from the boards of Aon and Starling Bank 46:22

3h ago46:22

46:22

Mark Winlow is Chair of several financial services companies, including Aon UK and Redwood Bank. Formerly, he was Audit Chair at Starling Bank and NED at Tesco Underwriting, AIG Life Ltd, and others. Tune in to hear his thoughts on: Three examples where insurance boards have changed the trajectory of their businesses (2:18) Non-execs transitioning …

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The optimist’s business case for an African green shipping revolution 20:31

6h ago20:31

20:31

TALK long enough about green shipping scenarios and sooner or later all roads lead to Africa. Africa’s renewable energy potential, particularly in solar and wind, is vast and largely untapped, which explains why green energy investment in Africa is booming.Imports of solar panels, largely from China, are up 60% in the past 12 months alone. While th…

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20VC: Andrew NG on The Biggest Bottlenecks in AI | How LLMs Can Be Used as a Geopolitical Weapon | Do Margins Matter in a World of AI? | Is Defensibility Dead in a World of AI? | Will AI Deliver Masa Son ... 1:02:53

14d ago1:02:53

1:02:53

Dr. Andrew Ng is a globally recognized leader in AI. He is Founder of DeepLearning.AI, Executive Chairman of LandingAI, General Partner at AI Fund, Chairman and Co-Founder of Coursera. As a pioneer in machine learning Andrew has authored or co-authored over 200 research papers in machine learning, robotics and related fields. In 2023, he was named …

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20Product: How AI Changes Product Design | Does the Design Phase Become Irrelevant in a World of Vibe Coding | The Five Pillars of Truly Great Product Design with Carl Rivera, Chief Design Officer at Shopify ... 1:11:23

17d ago1:11:23

1:11:23

Carl Rivera is the Chief Design Officer at Shopify, where he previously led both Merchant Services and the Shop App as VP of Product. Before joining Shopify through its acquisition of Tictail, Carl was the co-founder and CEO of Tictail, the "Tumblr for e-commerce," where he built one of the most beloved design-forward commerce platforms of its era.…

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20VC: Sequoia's Leadership Transition | Michael Burry Shorts NVIDIA and Palantir | Gamma Raises $100M at $2BN | Has Defensibility Died in a World of AI | Datadog Surges as Duolingo Plummets: What is Happening ... 1:15:50

18d ago1:15:50

1:15:50

AGENDA: 04:22 Sequoia's Leadership Transition 09:46 Michael Burry's Big Short on Nvidia and Palantir 17:41 Gamma Raises $100M at a $2BN Valuation 32:34 Does Defensibility Exist Today When Copying is Easy 40:31 Should All Funds Be Way More Diversified 47:12 How to Run a Fundraising Process & What Not To Do 57:57 Datadog Surges 20% and Duolingo Crash…

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148. Professor Doyin Atewologun: Should boards ditch DEI? 45:06

17d ago45:06

45:06

Professor Atewologun is the former Dean of the Rhodes Scholarship at the University of Oxford and is currently the Founder and CEO of Delta, Advisor to the board of the Tearfund and Trustee at the Old Fire Station. In this conversation, we cover: What did the Parker review get right and where did it go wrong? (01:47) Is there a relationship between…

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The evolution of the shadow fleet 19:52

8d ago19:52

19:52

OVER the past few months, our team of analysts has been quietly at work, giving our shadow fleet* watchlist a huge revamp.For those not in the know, the list identifies vessels that fit a specified set of criteria making them likely candidates for the shadow fleets serving Russia, Iran and Venezuela.As the sanction campaigns from the UK, US and EU …

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20VC: Benchmark's Newest General Partner Ev Randle on Why Margins Matter Less in AI | Why Mega Funds Will Not Produce Good Returns | OpenAI vs Anthropic: What Happens and Who Wins Coding | Investing Lessons ... 1:25:43

21d ago1:25:43

1:25:43

Ev Randle is a General Partner @ Benchmark, one of the best funds in venture capital. In their latest fund, they have Mercor ($10BN valuation), Sierra ($10BN valuation), Firework ($4BN valuation), Legora ($2Bn valuation) and Langchain ($1.4Bn valuation). To put this in multiples on invested capital, that is a 60x, two 30x and two 20x. Before Benchm…

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20Sales: Why You Need a CRO Pre-Product | Why Remote Sales Teams Do Not Work | How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine with Chad Peets 1:09:13

24d ago1:09:13

1:09:13

Chad Peets is one of the greatest sales leaders and recruiters of the last 25 years. From 2018 to 2023, Chad was a Managing Director at Sutter Hill Ventures. Chad has worked with the world's best CEOs and CROs to build world-class go-to-market organizations. Chad is currently a member of the Board of Directors for Lacework and Luminary Cloud and on…

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20VC: Navan IPO: Winners, Losers and is a $4.5BN Exit Enough in VC Today | Harvey Raises $150M at $8BN Price | Why Google is a Buy and Amazon is a Sell | Meta Down 10%, Is Zuck Struggling? 1:16:23

25d ago1:16:23

1:16:23

AGENDA: 04:27 Navan's IPO: Winners, Losers and 20% Crater 12:55 Harvey Raises $150M at an $8BN Valuation 35:36 Was Sam Altman Wrong to Snap at Brad Gerstner 41:25 Why GOOG is a Buy and Amazon is a Short 47:43 Meta Down 10%, Buy or Sell? 51:12 If You Have Not Accelerated with AI, You Are Dead 01:05:20 Why Now is the Best Time for Series A and Worst …

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147. Tessa Clarke: Sticking, quitting & the ideal NED: The board’s role in Olio’s success 46:06

26d ago46:06

46:06

Tessa Clarke is co-founder and CEO of Olio, which has over 8.5 million users, across 65+ countries, who have together shared over 125 million meals and 15 million household items. Tessa is a member of the Small Business Growth Forum, Advisory Board Member at Stop Ecocide International and Venture Partner at Mustard Seed MAZE. Listen to hear her tho…

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No cyber risk insurance? Fool around and find out 28:29

28d ago28:29

28:29

WHAT happens if you don’t buy cyber risk insurance? Well, Jaguar Land Rover certainly found out earlier this year.The luxury carmaker was hit by a devastating cyber attack in late August, causing it to shut down its production lines for more than four weeks and costing it £50m a week. It only got things back to normal in early October.It was initia…

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20VC: Cohere's Chief AI Officer on Why Scaling Laws Will Continue | Whether You Can Buy Success in AI with Talent Acquisitions | The Future of Synthetic Data & What It Means for Models | Why AI Coding ... 57:34

28d ago57:34

57:34

Joelle Pineau is the Chief AI Officer at Cohere, where she leads research on advancing large language models and practical AI systems. Before joining Cohere, she was VP of AI Research at Meta, where she founded and led Meta AI's Montreal lab. A professor at McGill University, Joelle is renowned for her pioneering work in reinforcement learning, rob…

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20VC: Tim Ferriss: Why I Walked Away From Angel Investing After Uber | How I Accidentally Lost $150 Million | Money Fixed My Problems—Then Made Me Miserable 1:31:49

1M ago1:31:49

1:31:49

🎧 20VC x Tim Ferriss — Full Episode Timeline 00:00 – "How Do You Stay True to Yourself When You Have to Perform for the World?" 06:00 – "Why Tim Ferriss Refused to Go All-In on YouTube" 09:00 – "You Don't Need 10 Million Fans—You Need 1,000 True Believers." 12:00 – "The Internet Is Not a Relevance Machine—It's a Sensationalism Machine." 15:00 – "Mo…

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20VC: a16z Raises $10BN in New Funds | Mercor Raises $350M at a $10BN Valuation | OpenAI Restructuring: Who Wins and Who Loses | Why IRR is a BS Metric and Three Ways to Win in VC Today 1:24:09

1M ago1:24:09

1:24:09

AGENDA: 05:17 OpenAI's Restructuring: Winners and Losers 17:17 Andreessen Horowitz's Raise $10BN in New Funds 26:38 Mercor Raises $350M at a $10BN Valuation 43:08 Spray and Pray: Does it Work: Data Breakdown 47:04 The Role of Option Checks Venture Capital 48:36 The Three Ways to Win in VC Today 54:26 Why IRR is a BS Metric and What Matters More 01:…

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146. Dame Marie Gabriel CBE: structuring board meetings, dancing in the boardroom, and taking risks - lessons from an NHS Chair 47:21

27d ago47:21

47:21

Dame Marie Gabriel CBE is Chair of the NHS Race and Health Observatory and NHS North East London Integrated Care Board and former Chair of NHS Improvement’s London Regional Board. Tune in to hear her thoughts on: Creating a positive culture in board meetings open to the public (2:11) Laptops in meetings (4:23) Creating a sense of psychological safe…

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Shipping’s efficiency conundrum is getting harder to solve 24:32

1M ago24:32

24:32

This episode of the Lloyd's List Podcast was brought to you by Veson. Visit veson.com for more information.SHIPPING has a serious efficiency problem.There is the obvious uncertainty and chaos within the International Maritime Organization-led decarbonisation plans.But this is not just a carbon efficiency problem — the current direction of geopoliti…

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20VC: Sequoia's David Cahn on The Winners and Losers in AI | The $0-$100M Revenue Club: Is Triple, Triple, Double, Double Dead? | The Future of Defence: Who Wins and Who Loses | How to Analyse Margins ... 1:14:23

1M ago1:14:23

1:14:23

David Cahn is a Partner at Sequoia Capital and one of the world's leading AI investors. At Sequoia David has led investments in Clay, Juicebox, Sesame, Kela, Stark, etc.. Before Sequoia, David was a General Partner @ Coatue where he led investments in Notion and Hugging Face. AGENDA: 00:00 We Are in an AI Bubble 05:04 Why Building Physical Data Cen…

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20Growth: How to Build a Paid Marketing Machine: ROAS (Return on Ad Spend) 101 | The Rise of User Generated Content and How to Use It | TikTok Ads: Expectations vs. Reality | Hiring for Growth: When and ... 1:16:18

1M ago1:16:18

1:16:18

Sandy Diao is one of the most exceptional growth leaders of the last decade. Sandy has scaled products to over 200M+ users and led growth teams at Descript, Meta and Pinterest. She is also a prolific writer all on things growth here. AGENDA: 03:59 Biggest Growth Lessons from Pinterest 08:01 What is a Good vs a Bad Growth Hypothesis 11:11 Common Mis…

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20VC: Why VC Today is Worse Than 2021 | Why Vertical SaaS is a Bad Investment Today | Why We Are Deluding Ourselves on Growth Expectations | Revolut Raises $3BN at a $75BN Valuation | Benchmark Adds Their ... 1:28:58

1M ago1:28:58

1:28:58

AGENDA: 04:50 Benchmark's New Partner: Everett Randall 10:19 Revolut Raises $3BN at a $75BN Valuation: Another Loss for Public Markets? 28:39 Why Today is as Bad as the Hype of COVID in 2021 32:10 Why Vertical SaaS is a Bad VC Investment Today 36:14 Why Everyone Investing in Legal SaaS Will Lose Money 44:16 Why King Making is More Real Than Ever 55…

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MEPC83: What on earth happens next? With Arsenio Dominguez 21:41

27d ago21:41

21:41

One week on from the extraordinary meeting of the Marine Environment Protection Committee at the IMO, and many in shipping are still asking themselves the same question: what on earth happens next?Here at Lloyd’s List we’ve been busy gathering the thoughts of as many people as possible from across the sector to help answer that question.Earlier thi…

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20VC: Deel CEO Alex Bouaziz on Raising $300M+ at a $17BN Valuation | Deel vs Rippling: WTF is Going On | Management Lessons from Ben Horowitz and Nik Storonsky | Deel's M&A Playbook: Lessons from 13 Acquisitions ... 1:15:23

1M ago1:15:23

1:15:23

Alex Bouaziz is the Co-Founder and CEO @ Deel, the $17BN global payroll juggernaut that just last week announced their latest $300M fundraise led by Ribbit, a16z and Coatue. Deel has been on the most insane journey, they do $1BN+ in ARR, they just had their first $100M revenue month and they have been profitable for over 3 years. AGENDA: 03:38 Anno…

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145. Thomas Thune Andersen: Impacting culture, managing IPOs and embracing the climate revolution - Boardroom Lessons from the former/Chair of Ørsted and Lloyd’s Register Group 48:13

1M ago48:13

48:13

Tune in to the conversation to hear about: The three moments that have had the biggest impact on how Thomas chairs today (01:48) International cultural differences every board member needs to know about (04:15) Practical steps to bridge cultural gaps with younger generations (6:22) The benefits of reverse mentoring versus surveys (12:15) How to de-…

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Inside the IMO: How the Net-Zero Framework was thwarted… for now 26:12

29d ago26:12

26:12

This episode of the Lloyd’s List Podcast was brought to you by Veson. Visit veson.com for more information.Arguably the most important week in the history of the International Maritime Organization ended in stalemate after an extraordinary meeting of the Marine Environment Protection Committee voted to adjourn proceedings for a whole year.Last week…

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How port fees and tariffs are redrawing maritime maps 16:33

1M ago16:33

16:33

IN today’s episode, we're diving into one of the most significant transformations in modern shipping: how geopolitical tensions and supply chain realignments are altering maritime trade routes.From the implementation of tit-for-tat port fees between the US and China to the rise of Southeast Asia as a manufacturing powerhouse, the shipping industry …

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20VC: The Startup Adding $1M ARR Every Week | Competing Against OpenAI's Codex and Claude Code: Who Wins | Why Gemini is Failing and GPT-5 Is Winning | Do Margins Matter in a World of AI | The Ugly Truth ... 1:13:49

2M ago1:13:49

1:13:49

Zach Lloyd is the Founder and CEO of Warp, the next-generation developer terminal reinventing how engineers build and collaborate. Warp has raised over $70M from top-tier investors including Sequoia Capital, GV, Dylan Field, and Elad Gil. Before founding Warp, Zach was Principal Engineer at Google, where he led development of Google Docs, and later…

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20VC: $3.5BN - The Price Zuck Paid for Thinking Machines Co-Founder | Goldman Sachs Acquires Industry Ventures for $665M | Softbank Borrows $5BN Against ARM Holding to Invest More Into OpenAI 1:19:54

2M ago1:19:54

1:19:54

AGENDA: 03:44 Rory Is So Old He Worked with Arthur Rock!!! 07:28 Goldman Sachs Acquires Industry Ventures for $665M 16:37 Thinking Machines Co-Founder Raises $2BN and Then Leaves for Meta 29:36 SoftBank Goes for $5BN Leverage Against ARM Stock To Buy More OpenAI 39:35 More Data Centres Than Offices: Are We In a Bubble 43:28 Where is the Alpha in Ve…

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TRADE OFF: Essendon need to “take a good look at themselves” & all the Winners and Losers 22:22

2M ago22:22

22:22

Matthew Lloyd and Laura Spurway wrap all the moves of the AFL's 2025 Trade Period and discuss all the winners and losers and what happens now with Hawthorn, and the fractured relationship with Essendon and their captain. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.By 9Podcasts

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144. Professor Alison Taylor: Should boards speak up or shut up? 46:44

1M ago46:44

46:44

Professor Alison Taylor is a Clinical Associate Professor at NYU Stern School of Business and author of Higher Ground: How Business Can Do the Right Thing in a Turbulent World (Harvard Business Review Press, 2024). Tune in to hear her thoughts on: Why it’s so hard for businesses to be “good” (01:37) Should boards speak up or shut up on divisive iss…

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TRADE OFF DAY 7: Curnow, De Goey, disappointing clubs & an EPIC final day coming 15:14

2M ago15:14

15:14

Jimmy Bartel and Matthew Lloyd go through the news of Day 7 of the AFL's Trade Period and discuss how much the Hawks need to pay, Curnow and the Swans, advice for De Goey and what is happening on the final day of a wild trade period! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.By 9Podcasts

1
Maritime leadership’s direction and influence come under review 19:25

1M ago19:25

19:25

IN THIS episode of the Lloyd’s List podcast, Synergy chief executive Jesper Kristensen considers two significant and timely questions: where is maritime leadership heading and who will define it?He tackles them from both an individual and an industry standpoint before discussing whether attitudes outside shipping are now influencing the sector’s di…

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20VC: Atlassian CEO on Why Everything is Overvalued & Are We in an AI Bubble | Do Margins Matter & Does Defensibility Exist in an AI World | Is Per Seat Pricing Dead & The Future of Vibe Coding with Mike ... 1:03:16

2M ago1:03:16

1:03:16

Mike Cannon-Brookes is the Co-Founder and Co-CEO of Atlassian, the $50BN software giant behind products like Jira, Confluence, and Trello. Since founding the company in 2002, he has scaled it to over 300,000 customers globally, generating more than $5BN in annual revenue. Atlassian now employs over 10,000 people across 13 countries and is one of th…

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TRADE OFF DAY 6: Sam Mitchell’s “brutal call” on a star & Lloydy’s “mail” 14:12

2M ago14:12

14:12

Jimmy Bartel and Matthew Lloyd go through the news of Day 6 of the AFL's Trade Period and discuss every name left on the board and where they go, Lloydy reveals his mail on is going on with Merrett and the writing is on the wall for a Hawthorn star. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.…

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20Sales: Scaling Snowflake from $0-$3BN in ARR | Snowflake vs Databricks: My Biggest Lessons | Why Customer Success is BS and What Replaces It with Chris Chris Degnan 1:02:22

2M ago1:02:22

1:02:22

Chris Degnan is the former Chief Revenue Officer at Snowflake, where he was instrumental in scaling the company from less than $1M in ARR to over $3B in annual revenue. He joined as the first sales hires and built Snowflake's go-to-market engine from scratch, growing the team from to more than 6,000 globally. Under his leadership, Snowflake became …

1
TRADE OFF DAY 5: Why aren’t North active? Cox and Mitchell & A career over 16:16

2M ago16:16

16:16

Jimmy Bartel and Laura Spurway go through the news of Day 5 of the AFL's Trade Period and discuss why exactly North Melbourne are not active, when they have 1 VERY big problem, Collingwood needs to do the right thing by some veterans and the lates on Elijah Hollands. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.…

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TRADE OFF DAY 4: Curnow needs to get tougher, Rowan Marshall & Suns culture 15:04

2M ago15:04

15:04

Jimmy Bartel and Matthew Lloyd go through the news of Day 4 of the AFL's Trade Period and discuss what needs to happen for Rowan Marshall to get out of the Saints, the concerns the Suns should have by bringing in a certain player and Lloydy gets tough on Charlie Curnow. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.…

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20VC: OpenAI's Multi $BN Deal with AMD | Polymarket, Vercel and Supabase Raise Mega Rounds | Does King Making Really Work in Venture Capital: Harvey vs Legora | Chamath is Back: The SPAC is Back 1:24:50

2M ago1:24:50

1:24:50

AGENDA: 03:29 OpenAI and AMD's Major Partnership 07:35 Microsoft Have F***** Up the OpenAI Partnership 17:08 OpenAI's Developer Day Announcements 20:45 Why VC is the Most Forgiving Asset Class on Price and Valuation 29:10 What Does it Take to IPO in 2025: Why Snyk Will Not IPO 42:30 Four Strategies Companies Need to Take to Own Their Own Destiny 49…

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TRADE OFF DAY 3: Greedy Hawks, Clayton Oliver & Jimmy's take on Craig McRae 16:20

2M ago16:20

16:20

By 9Podcasts

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143. Charles McManus: Quick growth in heavy regulation — the board’s role in ClearBank’s success 38:28

1M ago38:28

38:28

Charles McManus is co-founder, non-executive director (NED) and former CEO of ClearBank, the UK’s first new clearing bank in more than 250 years. Tune in to hear his thoughts on: The three most important calls Charles made as CEO (02:08) How the board helped Charles with strategic focus (06:45) The board’s role in navigating 26 regulatory stakehold…