Happy Thanksgiving! If you’re dreading your family’s impending political feuds over turkey and dinner rolls, we’re here to share an episode that just might help guide you. In August, Osita Nwanevu, a progressive and the author of “The Right of the People: Democracy and the Case for a New American Founding,” joined Ross for a respectful debate about how we should be interrogating the democratic system the country is built on — without yelling or threats.

• 5:21 - What's wrong with our democracy?
• 10:43 - Our undemocratic founding
• 18:36 - The case for more U.S. states and a new constitution
• 25:27 - Where economic reform fits into this problem
• 30:54 - Does Trump represent the will of the people?
• 38:50- What Trump’s presidency says about democracy
• 42:06 - The elusive Bernie Sanders moment
• 48:05 - The mystical element of our politics

(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.)

Thoughts? Email us at [email protected]. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.