What if we told the stories the church has tried to bury? In Episode 51 of Cabernet and Pray, I sit down with Lucas Wilson—academic, editor of Shame-Sex Attraction, and survivor. We dive into the sobering realities of conversion therapy, explore the toxic cocktail of shame and theology, and examine how fear—especially the fear of hell—is weaponized to cause unimaginable harm. Lucas brings a mix of wit, candor, and charm to one of the hardest conversations the church needs to have. If you’ve ever wondered how the church got this so wrong (and how we can start making it right), this one’s for you.

Click here to watch it on video.

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